Military Matters

jbravo

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The association between a military lineage and tactical knife sales cannot be denied. It is the single most important marketing factor in the all-important "tactical" segment, period. The interesting thing is that most buyers are really thinking more about personal defense use than true military applications when buying these knives. After all, the primary purpose for a knife is to cut, and for a self defense knife it is to cut and stab. In contrast, a military knife needs to be able to cut, be used in self defense (or offense), and at the same time be able to serve 90% of the time as a utility/skinner/survival tool, and part time pry bar, digger, and tree trimmer. Given that disparity, how can the enormous size and sway of the tac folder market's infatuation with military connections be explained?

Even more odd, why do knives designed by well known martial artists rarely reach the successes of the military endorsed knives? A great example of this is Bram Frank's Gunting knife. Bram is a great practitioner of martial arts and an extremely gifted teacher of his style of SE Asian arts. (He is also a great guy to know.) He designed a superbly well-thought out 'tool' for use in self defense that permits a spectrum of responses - mildly non-lethal, non-lethal, or lethal - depending on how its deployed. The Gunting (made by Spyderco) has every possible strength if actual use is the goal: designed by a MA master, clear SD applicability, able to withstand hard use, adopted by many police depts, vey high quality production, reasonable price (~$110), practice trainer knife available, and so on. Yet, its been discontinued by Spyderco having failed to spark the fire of huge demand by 'tactical' folder buyers. At the same time, a very well known and hugely successful producer of "tactical" knives, most of which share none of these traits, now relies on incredibly bogus 'endorsements' made by anonymously nicknamed military personnel's comments in its very successful marketing program. The eponymous maker even explicitly stated, if obliquely, that he goes "overseas on ... missions" himself, to further this seeming (if entirely untrue) military connection.

To their credit, there are top notch makers, like Bob Terzuola and Kit Carson for example, who do not trade on their genuine bona fides, nor copy the latest tac fad, despite (or because of) the fact that they have tons of real world experience in the tactical theater. At the far extreme other end is the child genius who has absolutely zero personal military experience, but once had a contract to sell knives to one of the services, and has traded on that slim connection ever since. He's joined by the hapless English maker who made a strikingly similar copy of a classic tac folder, but whose knives are so overbuilt and bulky as to be unusable. The best way to consider most of these knives is to picture it being used in the dark, on a wet and muddy field, while wearing gloves and shivering. Thats why folders get short shrift in the service. But that military connection still persists in the selling of tac knives, and folders especially.

All of which is to say there is no rhyme or reason to it, but Military Matters.
 
An excellent post. Hopefully some people will read this and take it to heart. My favorite knife for the field is a Spyderco Delica. Nothing fancy, just a knife that cuts. Heavy duty use is a recon tanto. And, of course, A BM balisong, for that downtime when the aircraft are broken and dont feel like breaking :)
 
Seems like most informed buyers of good production tactical knives end up buying BM or Spyderco, which obviously don't hype up the use of their products by people in the military a great deal. These companies are pretty much at the top of the production-knife arena. So yes, hyping up a knife model's military connections seems to attract a certain segment of the market (kids), but the biggest players in the production tactical knife market are the ones who don't.

The Gunting- even the best idea executed in the highest quality may fail in the marketplace, even among informed buyers, for completely unknown reasons. Spyderco certainly has many other tactical knives with the same traits (if not design), so its possible they were competing with themselves on this one.
 
At the far extreme other end is the child genius who has absolutely zero personal military experience, but once had a contract to sell knives to one of the services, and has traded on that slim connection ever since. He's joined by the hapless English maker who made a strikingly similar copy of a classic tac folder, but whose knives are so overbuilt and bulky as to be unusable.
ROTFLMAO !!! (I won't tell who if you won't :D)

Every knife has a story to tell ... the Gunting may have been too specialized. I believe Bram didn't want a knife optimized for stabbing so he deliberately kept the blade short. In fact, within the frame of the current handle, that blade could have been a good 1/2" longer, which would have given it a significantly improved utility function, which might have gone a long way in bringing in another group of buyers. Ya never know.
 
Reading JBravo's post took me back right about 20 years (I'd deny I'm getting old, but my body's starting to make the point in no uncertain terms). I spent 4 years as a Grunt, and never went to the field without a K-bar or two. They were inexpensive, held up pretty well, you could sharpen them on a rock, and if one broke or got lost there was usually another one waiting in the locker. I ended up with a lot more knives than sheaths, after a week or two of wet conditions in the field the leather never bounced back the way my feet did. Some people carried folders in the field, but no one used folding knives for hard use in the field, it just didn't make any sense.

I distinctly remember when my Dad sent me a real novelty, a Buck folding knife with plastic handles and a nylon sheath with a velcro closure. That became my new field folder, and was the butt of quite a few jokes until my fellows started to see that I could keep my 110 (I think that's what it was) and its leather sheath nice and clean if it didn't go to the field with me.

Now it's true that I was just a ground-pounder, and I cross-trained with all the weapons systems that the weapons platoon guys lugged around, and also had some training as a scout/sniper, but I have to say that it was generally accepted that if you got to the point of defending yourself with your knife you had made some serious mistakes along the way. Yes, we trained in hand-to-hand, but in all other regards the goal was not to get to that point. The general concensus was that it was infinitely preferable to shoot a guy holding a knife than to be a guy holding a knife. I don't want to think about the scorn and derision that would have been heaped upon anyone suggesting we seriously consider using a folding knife in combat.

Sorry for all the rambling. My point (I think there's one here) is that I think the market, to a large degree, has made a spurious correlation between "tactical" and "military". It's true that when we think of tactics we often think of military tactics, but the first definition of "tactic" is "an expedient for achieving a goal". The typical goal of knife use is to cut. Folding knives started to become "tactical" when people started to think of ways to more expediently employ them; pocket clips allow for easy indexing, thumb studs and holes allow for one-handed opening. Of course pocket clips also increase the chances of coming up empty-handed when you reach for your knife, especially if you spend a lot of time in the field. And so for a lot of military personnel, the best knife for military application may very well be one that scores pretty low on the "tactical" scale.

Again, sorry for the rambling, and thanks to JBravo for the trip down memory lane.
 
I'm of the belief that a good tactical knife has three qualities. First it is dependable. Second it is versatile. Lastly, it is portable, easily stored and carried.

The military has selected and issued the M9 as its field knife/bayonet after testing many different styles of knife. Here is a link to its website. It is today's Ka-Bar.

The Russians, Isralis, etc. all have their version of it. All have seen tough use in combat situations.

www.m9bayonet.com
 
jbravo,
to most people "tactical knives" is not synonymous to "fighting knives". IMO a tactical knife is one that has features that lend themselves to combat applications, but it is also sufficiently thick and strong to do some really heavy duty work (like hammering, prying and digging) with it in a pinch.
For example, a tactical (or combat) knife will usually have just a single edge for extra strength and so you can use it to split woods or choke up on the blade for fine cutting chores.
 
Mr. Ritt pretty much summed it up: Tactical and Folder are really mutually exclusive in the field.

I think the Chris Reeve Green Beret/Neil Roberts Warrior/ 1-Piece Project 1- type knives are about as "hard use tactical" as any I can think of... fixed blades all.
 
Ritt said:
member when my Dad sent me a real novelty, a Buck folding knife with plastic handles and a nylon sheath with a velcro closure. That became my new field folder, and was the butt of quite a few jokes until my fellows started to see that I could keep my 110 (I think that's what it was) and its leather sheath nice and clean if it didn't go to the field with me.
that scores pretty low on the "tactical" scale.

Just an aside, when I first joined the army my dad got me the exact same knife, I believe! Like a plastic Buck 110, with camo handles. Just pulled out that old knife from my pile of old army stuff the other day. Great knife!
 
jbravo said:
The interesting thing is that most buyers are really thinking more about personal defense use than true military applications when buying these knives.
Based on what is usually reported on the forums, those knives get used for general utility more than anything else.

...how can the enormous size and sway of the tac folder market's infatuation with military connections be explained?
For most people it would make more sense to use a knife which was accepted by a construction worker than a navy seal, however the latter is more "bad ass" obviously.

The thing which makes no sense to me about all the "high speed" promotion is just look at the knives which are commonly used by the military, they are often the lowest end production available.

The Buck/Strider Solution was promoted as being very rugged and used by a military group for digging/prying, etc. . I watched my brother (carpenter) totatally mangle it in under a minute just chopping on a piece of birch.

At the far extreme other end is the child genius who has absolutely zero personal military experience, but once had a contract to sell knives to one of the services, and has traded on that slim connection ever since. He's joined by the hapless English maker who made a strikingly similar copy of a classic tac folder, but whose knives are so overbuilt and bulky as to be unusable.
In general it doesn't help to make vague assertions about makers, if I said something like "There is a really well known custom knife maker who actually has no involvement in the making of his custom knives." this isn't very productive. It just casts doubt over a bunch of makers and it can't really be contended, it isn't much better than a rumor.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
In general it doesn't help to make vague assertions about makers, if I said something like "There is a really well known custom knife maker who actually has no involvement in the making of his custom knives." this isn't very productive. It just casts doubt over a bunch of makers and it can't really be contended, it isn't much better than a rumor.

-Cliff

No one would know what in the heck you are talking about.

The above thinly veiled statement about the child genius is referring to Mad Dog, Kevin McClung. I am not even into tactical stuff, and I know that. Not sure who the English guy is, but I am thinking it is DorkOPS.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
All of which is to say there is no rhyme or reason to it, but Military Matters.

There, you have answered your own question. The reason that tactical knives with a military association sell better, then knives without that association, is because they tap into a whole different market of collectors. They sell to knife colectors as well as to a broader market of militaria collectors. The militaria collector doesn't care about the knife actual performance; to them what matters is that there be clear documentation that the knife has been used by a particular military organization. It needn't be any more functional then blouse buttons, old medals, 100-year old field maps, or faded uniforms, it is valued simply as a historical relic.

n2s
 
Not sure who the English guy is, but I am thinking it is DorkOPS.

I believe that it is a reference to Farid; although, I disagree I think he makes a decent knife.

n2s
 
Thought-provoking post! I'll take your comments out of order:

Even more odd, why do knives designed by well known martial artists rarely reach the successes of the military endorsed knives? A great example of this is Bram Frank's Gunting knife.

The Gunting may be the absolute worst knife to use as an example here ... you may admire the design, but Bram's theories are very controversial (read: many many people disagree with them) inside the "defensive knife community" (sorry, horrible term, but I don't know what to call it), and the design is confusing to those outside that community. I expected Bram's knife to be a little more successful than it was, but never more than a niche-style offering.

Note that Michael Janich's theories are a bit more mainstream than Bram's, but also a bit controversial. As expected, the knives Mike designed based on his defensive knife theories are doing much much better than the Gunting. I think they are sound successes for Spyderco. Keating's theories seem roundly admired by all, and the Chinook also does fine. There's also a knife coming designed by Southnarc, who again has theories that are a bit controversial and whose designs are incomprehensible to those outside the community, so I expect a more niche-y type success (although in this case, I subscribe to S'narc's theories myself, so I may feel about that knife the way you do about the Gunting).

On the Benchmade side, it'd be hard to argue that the AFCK, co-designed w/ Caracci, has been anything other than an unqualified blockbuster success.

I do see what you're saying, and you're right that knives designed by combatives guys aren't always blockbuster successes, but sometimes they are.

The association between a military lineage and tactical knife sales cannot be denied. It is the single most important marketing factor in the all-important "tactical" segment, period. The interesting thing is that most buyers are really thinking more about personal defense use than true military applications when buying these knives.

So I think there's a phenomenon here that isn't limited to just knives: no matter how much a buyer wants to deny it, to some extent or other, our purchase choices reflect something we want to say about ourselves. "I have the same knife the hardcore special ops guys chose" is appealing. I've seen many cases where this seems to be the only good explanation for why a particular knife was purchased over the likely alternatives.

I do agree though about your general point about design. It may be that these military knives are perfectly designed for those in the military, but some of them -- not all -- are not great designs for civilian uses. Which brings me back to the point above: civilian purchasers are buying as much based on image as anything else. Someone might mention to me that they're taking their new military knife out camping. "Okay, but if we both know you'll be using it for camping and not for cutting your way out of helicopters, wouldn't you have been better off with a knife that has a more secure comfortable handle?" Well okay, they conceded, but they need the strongest toughest knife ever. "No, you don't need the strongest toughnest knife ever, but even if you did, wouldn't a carbon steel have yielded something even tougher, in fact so much tougher than you could have thinned the profile so it would have cut better and still kept a toughness advantage?" Then they'll point out that they also want to use it for defensive use ... "wouldn't a thinner edge geometry be extra important there, as per my previous point about steel choice?" In many cases, a little though about what the knife will be used for would lead soundly away from the current hot knife. I do think there are many civilian uses that require good prying strength and good toughness, and military-style knives can be great candidates if they don't sacrifice too much of everything else. Military-style knives may be great choices for a civilian, but are not necessarily the best choice in a whole lot of cases.


At the far extreme other end is the child genius who has absolutely zero personal military experience, but once had a contract to sell knives to one of the services, and has traded on that slim connection ever since.

So, here's a case where I feel we see solid design. I know people argue with whether or not his steel choice and heat treat and prices are right. But forget about the execution for a second, and look at design. If you're looking for a super strong, tough knife, then start with a good carbon or alloy steel, because the toughness advantages will let you make a knife that's very strong but does not sacrifice edge geometry. Heat treat it right and put on a good edge geometry that cuts well. Put on a handle that's both secure and comfortable for more extended use (no, the two are NOT mutually exclusive!). Slap on a good all-around blade shape. I know some people argue that his knives aren't as tough as he claims, but that's a matter of execution: at the 20,000 ft level, he made all the right design choices even for a solid performer for civilian uses.

He's joined by the hapless English maker who made a strikingly similar copy of a classic tac folder, but whose knives are so overbuilt and bulky as to be unusable.

Ya, this person is one of the extremes of "just make it big and strong, and don't worry about whether it really works or not".


Joe
 
Oh for crying out loud, I will buy his first initials for $100.00 the suspense is killing me :D

Great post guys.
 
Hey Ritt - we're both old grunts (although I outdate you by about 10 yrs)! I carried kabars all the time, too, until I picked up the 8541 MOS and thought I needed a more high speed model, and got a Gerber Type II. Good for its day, I guess. Plus, nothiong beat a kabar for trading fodder with foreign troops! I got alot of great gear by swapping used kabars with our NATO brethren.

Sorry, I thought everyone would recognize all my references. Yes, McClung is the boy genius, and I learned only today that HE has been lying for years about military service. Seems he decided his 2 years as a rep for a company dealing with real soldiers qualified him to claim (on tacticalforums.com) that he was a "professional soldier" back in 2001. Then today, he refined that to reflect the true nature of his association with the services. His knives are pretty good, so its a further mystery why he subcumbed to the "military matters" lies. And, yes, the king of copycats is none other than Farid, whose work has emulated Jack Crain and Ernie Emerson too closely to be mere co-incidence.

Once again, Cliff has demonstrated his well-known propensity. I throw the BS flag on this one - I'll pay him $500 if he can duplicate in an objective setting his patently fraudulent statement about a Buck Strider being mangled in a minute chopping birch. My money is safe because that's a bare faced lie coming from a person of no honor.

Joe - excellent points. I had overlooked Janich, whose designs I regard highly - but perhaps that proves my thesis! :)
 
...my Dad sent me a real novelty, a Buck folding knife with plastic handles and a nylon sheath with a velcro closure.
I first joined the army my dad got me the exact same knife, I believe! Like a plastic Buck 110, with camo handles.
I bet you're thinking of the Bucklite. Mine is model #422, olive green handles and a camo nylon sheath. Sort of the pre-'tactical' plastic knife. Great sturdy blade, lightweight, and dependable lockback.

While the M9 is the military knife, I doubt it has much of a following in the mall-warrior 'tactical' market. It's just too darn heavy and large to actually carry. The design is so not cool compared to the latest/greatest DorkOps products. Even BudK tactical knives are marketed better/more. And it's priced so low it doesn't even raise an eyebrow among the "impress with price" crowd.

-Bob
 
Bob W said:
I bet you're thinking of the Bucklite. Mine is model #422, olive green handles and a camo nylon sheath. Sort of the pre-'tactical' plastic knife. Great sturdy blade, lightweight, and dependable lockback. -Bob

Yes, that's it, Bucklite. I'll have to see if I can dig it out of.... where-ever I left it.
 
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