Military tip : too thin

M

marty123

Joined
Oct 31, 2000
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903
Well, I looked at the Military again, in a store, to decide about buying one. I decided not to buy one, mainly because of the tip. The tip is too thin and fragile-looking for my liking. A thin tip on some knives makes some sense, but a knife like the Military should have a more robust tip. I'm not looking to do any heavy prying with the tip, but a heavy-duty knife like the Miltary should have a thicker tip. I have a Starmate, and it's tip is thicker and more appropriate for a heavy-duty knife. Otherwise, the Military is a very nice knife and deservedly popular. Just bulk-up the tip!
 
it is one of the weak points. People will argue that a knife is not a pry bar, however what happens if one were to drop the knife on the floor?? My guess is that $hit happens and the tip would snap (certainly not bend) :(

The second weak point IMO is the fact that the Military features a liner locking system. A sturdy lock back (or even better - compression lock) would IMHO be much more suitable for a knife of such a dignity.

Sayin´ all this, the Mil is still my favorite Spydie :)
 
Considering the flat grind and overall blade profile, I have to disagree. The Military, contrary to what its name might imply, is a pocket scalpel. That sharp, pointy tip is what sets it apart. Now, maybe they should have called it the Scalpel; the Wegner sounds more like what you're looking for.

A for the linerlock, well, I'm no fan of linerlocks, but I like everything else about this knife so much that I had to have one. And as for replacing it with another lock, let's think big: Axis lock!
 
Hi Marty -- appreciate your dilemna. Am beginning to think that as much as I like the idea of CPM440V, that maybe the Military in the ATS34 might be a bit stronger in the tip.

I think one thing is becoming pretty clear about 440V, and that is how brittle it can be. Somewhere, I have a link to a site that that not only provides the composition of the steels, but also describes their characteristics, assuming a good heat treat. I was surprised how far in front the 440V was in terms of edge holding. But, then again, it may have been as hard as Rc60.

I know of a comparison test held, I believe fairly recently, in which a forged 52100 blade went up against a 440V blade. The carbon steel actually outcut the CPM steel by a small margin. Then, they proceeded to bend the 52100 blade to a 90 degree angle. It returned to true. The CPM440V blade shattered into so many pieces at about 3-4 degrees, they couldn't find them all. Of course, the 52100 blade would cost considerably more than a typical knife with a 440V blade.

I know ATS34 has a bit of reputation for brittleness, but surely it ought to be stronger/more ductile than able to bend only 3-4 degrees.

As someone already posted, the Wegner may be what you're looking for in tip strength. It has a very thick blade, and that thickness is available pretty close to the tip. Might lack a little bit in the thrusting/stabbing end of things, but not a tip that should bread.

Just a few minutes ago, I completely surprised myself, by holding the blades of my Wegner and my Goddard Ltwt up together. Despite the considerable difference in the appearance of the blades, the cutting edges are almost identical. The ATS55 blade is nearly as thick as the Wegner's. It maintains the full thickness of the blade up to the front end of the grind. Don't know how many Goddards are available any more, but they're inexpensive, and a damned good knife, IMO. Would think that ATS55 might be slightly stronger than either ATS34 or 440V.

Good luck.
 
If you don't like the point on the Military, you could try either the Calypso plain edge, which is also flat ground. It had a mid-lock and a stronger tip design (although the blade is thinner overall). Handle is micarta. Steel is the now legendary VG-10. As I recall, Dexter Ewing did a review of these two knives side by side (maybe on Knifecenter). His opinion was that the Calypso was not quite up to truly heavy duty tasks.

Otherwise, I agree with Schmackey. The Wegner is not a light, but has good strength at the tip. There also has been talk of a compression lock on the Military which would be very nice.
 
Hi Bugs. I would guess that the 52100 blade that bet 90 degrees was a forged blade diffeentially heat treated. Not a fair test. Harden a 52100 blade using production methods and I guaranteee a snapped blade.

However, history with the steel has not shown brittleness except when hardened too hard.

Personally, I carry a Mil in 440V quite a bit and have had no probs. We've been making the model in 440V for some time now. We get very few back broken.

sal
 
I bought my Military back when they first came out. My knife has the ATS-34 steel, w/plain edge. It also has the notches in the finger choil. I have had no problems with the tip, or much else really. Aside from the need to get the liner adjusted, and the large finger notch, (nervous about liner/hand contact) I have found the knife lives up to it's reputation as a robust folder.

It also has the old two screw clip. No problems there either.
 
My criticism of the Miltary's tip being too thin has nothing to do with the 440v(s60v). It's just too thin, for my liking, regardless of the steel. As to the idea that 440v is prone to brittleness, I have a Native FRN and a Starmate, and their 440v works great. No chipping, no problems with brittleness.
The Military's tip looks to me like it could be damaged during hard use. Not by deliberate prying, or from dropping on the floor. Just during hard use, hard cutting, where there can easily be some significant twisting or prying force exerted on the tip.
The Native's tip is kind of thin, but it's a different type of knife, so that's okay with me. But to me, the Military is more of a hard use knife, and the way it is right now, I would have to baby the tip, and I don't want to do that. Other aspects of the Military, like the blade pattern, the flat grind, and the sturdy but thin handle, I like. When I first saw the Military, I didn't like it, but now I think it's a very good design, except for the tip.
Some people mentioned wanting some other type of lock, like the Axis lock. Well, the liner lock on my Starmate is great, and the Military is of the same design. The Axis lock is nice, but Spyderco does a great liner-lock on the Military and Starmate. Also, the Axis lock makes the handle thicker, and I really like the thin and strong handles on the Starmate and Military.
Some of you mentioned the Wegner as an alternate choice to consider instead of the Military. I've handled a Wegner. It's a very nice knife, but I have a Starmate, and the Wegner is not different enough compared to the Starmate to get me to buy it right now.
Bugs3x mentioned the Goddard lightweight. I have a Goddard Micarta large. Great knife. The Goddard pattern should be brought back in some form. Maybe Spyderco will resurrect it some day.
As to the Calypso, nice knife but not in the same category. Maybe some other time, though.
So, it's anonymous(sic)! The next batch of Military's made will be tweaked and have a better, thicker tip. Great!
Hey Samo: how did you break the tips on your Militarys?
 
Gee Samo. Maybe you need to send them to us to see what the problem was. Maybe we can fiss'em for you.

sal
 
Thanks, Sal. I know that the 52100 steel was differentially hardened. No doubt of it. I guess my point is that forging can take a relatively low alloy carbon steel up to the point where it will compete with, even beat the CPM440V at cutting rope or whatever, but still can be made to allow flex.

I may well be wrong on this, but since my interest in knives grew, have "felt" that Rc60 is kind of the bellweather hardness for blade steels. I find it frustrating that a steel like CPM440V/S60V with so much vanadium and carbon in it, can't seem to be tempered that hard, without being brittle as glass. A maker recently told me that he has yet to see any of the CPM steels be able to cut tough stuff without chipping out. I don't know what hardness the steels were, but I trust this man's judgement completely. He simply thinks the CMP steels are too brittle to be used for anything except cutting. Maybe some day, they'll come up with a SS that can be drastically improved by forging.

DOn't forget folks that my most frequently carried knife is the Native FRN. I love that knife, and I'm glad it has the 440V steel. None of my knives get used much, I fear, but it is still very comforting to know I have a blade that I should be able to use for a lot of cutting, and still expect some sharpness to remain.

Also -- and I'll blame this on the meds -- I think I said something about the ATS34 not being quite so brittle as the 440V. I believe in actuality, that ATS34 also has long been regarded as a somewhat brittle steel, if hardened to Rc60 or so.

In the end tho, guess have to at least wonder if marty123's perception that the Military's tip is simply too thin isn't correct, if not agree with him. Luckily for me, I guess, because of how fond so many are of the Military, that it just doesn't appeal to me, and I won't have that problem to worry about.
 
Muchas Gracias Poppa Spyder! :D You and the Spydecrew are the most AWESOME human beings on this earth! :D

Sam
 
I've only broken the point off one Spyderco, a Native. Someone wrote a few months ago about how they accidently dropped their Native and the tip broke, so I decided to see for myself. I held mine, point down, at about shoulder height and then dropped it on a thinly carpeted floor. The point broke! (duh)

It only took a few minutes to put a new point back on, (and the knife was pretty beat up anyway) so there were no worries. I'm honestly not sure what factor is to blame for the point breaking; it could be 440V, the fact that the tip is too thin, or maybe just my own destructive behavior. ;)

All in all, I like really thin tips though. The term "hard use folder" is an oxymoron to me. Every single folding knife, by its basic design, is not meant for hard use. With the cutting that I usually do with a pocket knife, a thin tip is more likely to be an advantage than a liability.
 
I have been carrying my Mil in 440V for 3 years and have never had a problem with chipping. I think that this knife is an excellent folder and sure I guess it could chip (what knife won't?) but for the price and the guarantee that comes with it it's a win-win situation. A truly remarkable knife.

Hey Bugs, I bet I know who the maker of that 52100 blade was ;). No one can out forge that guy. :D
 
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