Mill / Drill recommendations / buying advice?

Spark

Spark

HPIC - Hatas gonna Hate
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In the past year I've gotten into woodworking as a hobby, and that's led me in new directions. After seeing the products offered by Incra ( http://www.incra.com ) my curiosity for working in metal has been piqued.

I'm debating getting into a few projects these days that involve using a milling machine to complete the various parts... One of them is the home built AR-15 or AK-47 style rifle (semi auto, of course). While doing research on these, I've come across more than a few websites that show the various neat things you can do with mills, especially http://www.cncguns.com - this guy has made his own 1911's, Sig P228's, Beretta's, and of course, AR's. From everything I've researched, it's entirely possible to build yourself an AR lower or an AK receiver using a couple jigs and nothing more fancy than a drill press, but repeatedly sites are recommending using a mill if you have access to one.

Since I don't want to purchase a $500 Harbor Freight bottom of the barrel mini-mill, or a $50,000 Haas uber mini, I'm asking you guys for advice in what I should purchase, and where to look. From what I understand, Grizzly by and large is made in the same factory as HF, but has a bit better fit & finish. I don't have space (or the 3 phase power) for a gigantic Bridgeport either... so hopefully you guys can give me a hand with this.
 
You'll probably get more firearm related advice here, but be sure and look through some of the threads in shoptalk as well. Mills have been discussed in detail, with a lot of specific machines reviewed there.

I've played around with the idea of buying a mill quite a bit and done a lot of reading. Can't recommend any specific machines, but the basic idea is to buy the biggest you can afford and have space for. A square column seems to be more desireable than a round column because of the amount of adjustments needed if you have to move the head. I guess the square column offers better repeatability. And be sure to note which taper the spindle has because tooling is much easier to find for some than others.
 
Yeah, I don't think I can actually go with a full sized mill simply because of my house layout, so I think I'm stuck with a benchtop. Doing more research though!
 
Sherline is what I'd buy if I had to do it all again Kevin. These are very well made capable machines from what I've seen. http://www.sherline.com/

I have the Harbor Freight Mini Mill and Drill 44991 model which is not a bad machine but its even better with the belt drive conversion you can buy for it. http://www.mini-lathe.com/Mini_mill/Reviews/Belt_drv/belt_drv.htm I put this on my machine after getting it and it does run now with less noise due to the conversion but the best thing is that the belt absorbs the shocks that the teeth of the gears used to take. My first mill was a micro mill and the second time I used it the gears stripped. Those teeth are nylon from the factory by the way in both the micro and mini mills. The belt drive conversion does away with those permanently. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=44991

I use the crap out of this HF mill and its a pretty nice one for the money now that I've upgraded it but like I said the Sherlines seem to be a step up. Also, one that had the capability to tilt forward or back and sideways left or right in conjunction with a rotory table would be more versatile. The lathe option would be a nice one too at times for making small parts I think.

I know the Grizzly and Sieg machines are supposedly the same one as the HF model I have but I don't know of any differences other than color and maybe some superficial trim packages and perhaps some dial differences or table differences on either of them. Well, besides being more expensive than the HF model I mean.

STR
 
Spark said:
Yeah, I don't think I can actually go with a full sized mill simply because of my house layout, so I think I'm stuck with a benchtop. Doing more research though!
Click to expand...

I can't go with a full sized mill because of my bank layout :D


There are some pretty robust benchtop machines though, and some can be had with a pedestal/stand that has storage inside, if you don't have a bench sturdy enough to sit it on.

When I was doing more looking, I was thinking over a Jet or Wilton brand vertical mill. They have some benchtop type models that are just a little bit bigger than a full sized drill press and seem to have fairly good capacity. They were round column mills though, and I was told to get a square column if I could. Aside from that, I don't remember anyone having anything bad to say about them, other than they may not be quite as good a value as some of the other imports. Amazon.com has a pretty good selection of the Jet and Wilton mills, as well as other eqiupment in their line ups. Some of their sellers offer deals on shipping, or discount quite a bit so you might look around there a little bit.
 
Hi,
This always starts an arguement, but I have been reasonably happy with my smithy Granite 1324. I put a quick change tool post on it.
Bought it back when all I had for space was an 8 x 12 piece of the garage.
These days it mostly slots guards. My son uses it to do something to Colt 45ACP slides.
Enjoy your site and meeting you at Blade...Ken
 
Man, I've been looking at floor model Bridgeport styles on ebay, and I could possibly swing 3-5 grand for one, but damn, I don't have 7'x7' of area for one outside of the garage, and I can't even put it there if I'm going to let "company" park there. Not to mention 4500lbs is a bit of a stretch.

STR, I've been all over CNCZone and a couple other similar sites and the Sherline is something that piqued my interest.. that and the Seig X3's. Grizzly has an X3 style model that I could get; I'm debating going with a complete CNC setup to start with, instead of a manual mini, but I'm not sure.
 
Spark said:
STR, I've been all over CNCZone and a couple other similar sites and the Sherline is something that piqued my interest.. that and the Seig X3's. Grizzly has an X3 style model that I could get; I'm debating going with a complete CNC setup to start with, instead of a manual mini, but I'm not sure.
Click to expand...

I have run CNC machines, and have also been told that programming is not fun.

I have worked with the Bridgeport knee mill, and it is a religious experience, but a smaller mill from Grizzly may very well be the ticket. I like the tabletop/benchtop models in the 500-700lb range.

This one seems nice:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/G0519

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Spark said:
Man, I've been looking at floor model Bridgeport styles on ebay, and I could possibly swing 3-5 grand for one, but damn, I don't have 7'x7' of area for one outside of the garage, and I can't even put it there if I'm going to let "company" park there. Not to mention 4500lbs is a bit of a stretch.

STR, I've been all over CNCZone and a couple other similar sites and the Sherline is something that piqued my interest.. that and the Seig X3's. Grizzly has an X3 style model that I could get; I'm debating going with a complete CNC setup to start with, instead of a manual mini, but I'm not sure.
Click to expand...

I run CNC equipment at work. There are times when I think its the best thing going and times when I think a manual set up would be alot better.
The big thing to keep in mind on CNC machines is to include software in your budget. A small, home use sized mill probably won't be too bad it may even be included with the machine.. The driver software for the router I run at work costs about 10 grand though, and you have to have an up to date version of autocad to go with it :eek: So its an issue you want to at least look at before you order the machine.
The quality of the control software can also somewhat limit the stuff you do with the mill, or at least how you do it. I haven't done a lot with programming, but I know that there are perameters on how the tool enters the work and things like that where your options are limited and the results may not always be the best for the material you want to use.
On the other hand, its a hell of a lot easier to cut circles out with a CNC machine than a hand cranked one!
 
Yeah, the Sherline CNC stuff seems to run off open source GNU style freeware software, so that may be the way to go. It's not as big as I'd like, but I could always get a larger mill drill like the grizzly that was linked earlier for bigger manual setups.

As for cutting circles, isn't that what a rotary table is for? :D
 
Spark:

You don't need a mill to put together Ak-47's. Check out Ak-47.net. You'll have to join to access the "Build It Yourself II" portion of the site. You can buy ready made receivers for the build, or buy "flats" to make the receiver yourself. A few specialized tools, an AK-47 (or 74) parts set and 12 ton Harbor Freight press and you're in business. Don't know what AR-15 builds require.
 
Spark, I just got a Tormach 1100 and would highly recommend it. I also have a Sherline tabletop CNC mill and a full size Tree machining center. You can't beat the capability for the price. It has a very stiff spindle and all the features of a "real" machining center, but they start at $6800. I added a 4th axis, full sheet metal enclosure, and tooling. They have a great tooling system, where it's R8, but it has dual contact for extra stiffness and height repeatability. The spindle at 4500 rpms is very smooth, and I can't hear it running from the next room.

I first read about them in the literature from the blade show. I went to their website and read their design philosophy, and that did it for me. I bought one sight unseen, and don't regret it. I was looking into high speed CNC machining centers, and this one, with the Mach 3 Control actually allows parametric programming, whereas the $40K machines didn't. Also, when you start adding all the options to the 40K machines, they end up around $60K. This one was around 12K all decked out with deluxe stand, coolant, tooling, computer, 4th axis and shipped. You can't beat the value.
 
btboone said:
Spark, I just got a Tormach 1100 and would highly recommend it. I also have a Sherline tabletop CNC mill and a full size Tree machining center....
Click to expand...

Boone,

I'm confused...which machine are you recommending?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
I'm recommending the Tormach. I'm saying I have the others to compare to. The tabletop Sherline is very small and can take only the lightest cuts. There is plenty of backlash and is best for smaller parts. The other is a full size machining center, so I know what kinds of performance and cuts to expect from a real machine. The Tormach is unlike others I've looked into and is very high on the performance per dollar ratio.

Here's a link to a high res picture of the Tormach. Note that the Z axis has box ways and the spindle is 1.5hp. http://www.tormach.com/document_library/PCNC_Person_High_Res.jpg
 
I've been looking at the Tormach actually and called them early today to discuss some of the aspects I was confused on. What's got me in a quandry is getting the damn thing in the house or basement, which apparently is going to take major disassembly. Even then I'm going to have to do some measuring to see if I can even get it in place, since I'm not sure if I have enough head clearance. I certainly can't get a bridgeport into the basement, that's for sure, and my garage is a no go as well.

Since this is going to be my first machine, the Tormach looks like the best bang for the buck - the sherline lacks rigidity, and the next option of a Super X3 with controllers looks to be as expensive as a Tormach! (But much less than a Haas, thank god!)

Ron - I've already got everything short of a spot welder for a "flat" build AK, but what's been interesting me is milling my own AR-15, 1911, Sig P228 and more. Hell, milling a AK receiver would be badass too though... regardless, I'm probably going to pony up for a membership at the Home Gunsmith / Roderos forums and seeing what advice they can give too.
 
Sherline is what I'd buy if I had to do it all again Kevin. These are very well made capable machines from what I've seen. http://www.sherline.com/
Click to expand...

I agree

I own a Sherline Mill and Lathe. They are great for small projects and have just about every accessory that you could inagine. I have machined 300 stainless, carbon steel, aluminum an brass w/o any problems. You just have to go slow and be carefull on the hard stuff.

Good luck.
 
Spark, let me know if I can answer any specific questions on the Sherline or the Tormach. The Tormach is very heavy at 1300 pounds, so it takes a real effort to move. I bought a 2 ton engine hoist from Harbor Freight for $149 to help with that. I had to go around the back of my house to the basement, so I had to get across some grass as well. It literally took all day long for that. Some 3/4" plywood and a moving dolly or pallet jack would have helped with that. I don't think going down stairs will be feasable unless it were taken apart. I don't imagine height will be a problem. I have an 8 foot ceiling, and it doesn't come close. I can get accurate measurements if you need them, although their literature probably has that.
 
God, this is frustrating the hell out of me. The more I look at this, the more it seems like I'm going to need a knee mill of some sort, which is going to be way too big to get into my house, and putting it into a garage doesn't look like an option.

The Tormach's head doesn't rotate or cant, right?
 
No, the head is fixed on the Tormach.

My first CNC was solid ram with a 6" travel and a power knee similar to the one at MSC. It's a lot more expensive though. Like almost 4x the price. You don't think that you can just tool up differently rather than needing a knee? What type of part or travel might you need? Maybe there's a different way of thinking about the workholding.
 
Well, honestly I'm not all that certain I need a knee - I can always get a tilting table for it to do angled operations - for example, the buffer retainer on the AR-15 lower is drilled at 6 degrees off vertical - so that's just a matter of shimming it or otherwise just tilting the workpiece. But if I cut picatinny rails (which have 45 degree angles on them) then that's a separate way of holding things. Then there's other designs that might require a tilted head... being a novice though, I'm not sure how much is a hardware problem and how much is my simple ignorance of the capabilities of equipment & accessories.
 
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