Minimalist knife production. Is it a thing?

Joined
Jan 15, 2012
Messages
858
Hello blade enthusiasts,

are there any real knife designs that follow a (near) zero-waste approach to steel? Idea as below, blade cut out from steel sheet with little or no leftovers?
I imagine such a design could be exceptionally suitable for inexpensive mass production

Best,
Daniel

Cut the crap fixed 1.PNG


Cut the crap fixed 2.PNG
 
Hello blade enthusiasts,

are there any real knife designs that follow a (near) zero-waste approach to steel? Idea as below, blade cut out from steel sheet with little or no leftovers?
I imagine such a design could be exceptionally suitable for inexpensive mass production

Best,
Daniel

View attachment 1918364


View attachment 1918371

Nice design. The Spanish knife company Hydra started like this, via crowd-sourcing the following, if I remember right:

i-brJmqMD-XL.jpg


The above was enough to get them started, they now have a full port-folio; just bought a second of their knives yesterday. Quite a few of them use Sleipner steel, which I like.
 
I could be wrong about this, but wouldn't most forged blades have very little waste? Especially when the bevels are forged in too. Cost of production would certainly be higher though.

This was going to be my response as well.
 
Nice design. The Spanish knife company Hydra started like this, via crowd-sourcing the following, if I remember right:

i-brJmqMD-XL.jpg


The above was enough to get them started, they now have a full port-folio; just bought a second of their knives yesterday. Quite a few of them use Sleipner steel, which I like.
I really like that, cool design.

No way it minimizes waste steel though with that handle shape.

Cool topic and definitely interested to see what comes out. It needs to start from the design as you point out and the raw material size if cutting out from sheets. On the latter, your example leaves a lot of waste on the edges of a sheet if it's rectangular. If you adjusted the tip to 45*, you could repeat the whole pattern rotated 90* to get more of the corners (45* in each direction gives you that 90* corner). You also need to figure out length and height to be the right multiples where combined are close as possible to the dimensions of the raw metal sheet. That's simpler to fully maximize if the sheet is square or more generally if one dimension is a multiple of the other.

This falls under a class of math problems called packing problems: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packing_problems
 
I really like that, cool design.

No way it minimizes waste steel though with that handle shape.

Cool topic and definitely interested to see what comes out. It needs to start from the design as you point out and the raw material size if cutting out from sheets. On the latter, your example leaves a lot of waste on the edges of a sheet if it's rectangular. If you adjusted the tip to 45*, you could repeat the whole pattern rotated 90* to get more of the corners (45* in each direction gives you that 90* corner). You also need to figure out length and height to be the right multiples where combined are close as possible to the dimensions of the raw metal sheet. That's simpler to fully maximize if the sheet is square or more generally if one dimension is a multiple of the other.

This falls under a class of math problems called packing problems: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packing_problems

Maybe they are laser or water cut and the steel is recycled ? Serious question, don't know is this is done ...
 
Maybe they are laser or water cut and the steel is recycled ? Serious question, don't know is this is done ...
You could be right they do it another way, my bad. My focus was totally on CNC and maximizing the cutouts from initial design to the point I wasn't thinking of anything else.

Edit: This is probably the original kickstarter(?) https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/hydraknives/buzzard-usa-inspired-everyday-carry-multitool-neck. Maybe a piece to it, it mentions that "blades are cut by CNC by a water machine".
 
I took a 8” jointer blade, ground the bevel by a few thousandths, chisel ground the end, and used 4” of old garden hose as a handle. It’s a quick and dirty hacking knife kept near my anvil. Does that count?

I have no idea how much steel they waste making a jointer blade.

Parker
 
I don't believe there is any actual "waste". Any steel that is leftover from the manufacturing process gets recycled. There is a vast global industry devoted specifically to recycling scrap metal from manufacturers.

I worked for a small company that produced steel products, and there was a bin on site specifically for steel scrap. The bin was provided by a recycling company that paid the owner of the business for the scrap, and once a week the recycling company came by to empty the bin.

And that was a small company. A big knife company that produces a lot of metal scrap year in and year out isn't going to just throw it in the trash. Especially when there are recycling companies willing to buy it, and even come pick it up. That scrap is worth money. And the better the steel, the more it's worth.
 
Last edited:
I don't believe there is any actual "waste". Any steel that is leftover from the manufacturing process gets recycled. There is a vast global industry devoted specifically to recycling scrap metal from manufacturers.

I worked for a small company that produced steel products, and there was a bin on site specifically for steel scrap. The bin was provided by a recycling company that paid the owner of the business for the scrap, and once a week the recycling company came by to empty the bin.

And that was a small company. A big knife company that produces a lot of metal scrap year in and year out isn't going to just throw it in the trash. Especially when there are recycling companies willing to buy it, and even come pick it up. That scrap is worth money. And the better the steel, the more it's worth.
But recycling scrap steel would mean it has to go back into the furnace and whatever other processes are needed to get it back into sheet metal format again? I am thinking of designs that totally minimise any such recycling processes. The simplest would be just cutting a flat bar at alternating 45 and 90 degrees angle, that would produce the embryo of a knife with an American tanto point and with zero waste, since if an even number of such blades are cut out of the flat bar there is no wasted start/stop scrap pieces…

Edit: obviously grinding the edge and drilling holes for lanyards and stuff produces waste, so it’s not strictly zero I guess ☺️
 
The idea might be great for limiting waste, but it won't make thing less expensive. Most mass manufacturers, like other people say, keeping the steel waste to minimal, since waste steel is waste money for them.

Your example, or most other of the same idea, limits the number possible and practical usage designs for the sake of production efficiency. You have to avoid all the curves, possible ergonomic and more specialized shape (like clip point and drop point). The design will almost always ended up with some more sheepsfoot style. They all have compromise.

Generally speaking, the heat treat is the more expensive and polluting (if you consider it waste) step in knife making since it consumes a lot of energy. Then grinding requires some level precision and material removal, and different steel also more suitable with different grind type, which again affecting the price. And by the way, cutting occurs before those steps, when the steel is still soft.

Cutting creates a lot of dust dust, difficult to clean and recycle, it is and environment hazard, a bigger concern than waste. CNC or waterjet machining are nice, but what you do is ultimately still material removal. You still need to clamping the plate down, removing the contour then manually remove some leftover then grind it out. It takes time, use a lot of energy and creates a lot of metal chips, dust and waste. Laser cutting is great, but it is still about the same of having cutting out the contour, it is not no waste because there is no metal chip or dust, just the chip gets melted in the process. I worked in an industrial CNC workshop for a few years, sometimes I have to wear filtered mask to clean the machines.

There is a high efficiency way that almost every big manufactures already use since the industrial era: Stamping.
It 's fast, minimizing chip and dust. The leftover can be rolled up for easy transport for recycle.
 
Last edited:
Steel is expensive. I doubt any maker wants to waste any. I know I don’t. My offcuts I take back to Bohler for recycling.
 
victorinox has been doing this for a very long time - watch this video - at 3:03 you see the steel sheet with blades stamped out - they are hardly wasting anything ... even the leftover steel sheet is sent back to the steel mill and recycled

 
Last edited:
I would guess your starting stock is square or rectangular. Why wouldn't the starting ends be square? Just curious.

I work in a manufacturing facility, we do everything in our power to maximize a sheet of metal and minimize waste.

Cut the crap fixed 1.PNG
 
I would guess your starting stock is square or rectangular. Why wouldn't the starting ends be square? Just curious.

I work in a manufacturing facility, we do everything in our power to maximize a sheet of metal and minimize waste.

View attachment 1919605
The idea would be that you could cut a number of knife embryos from a metal strip, wasting only the start/stop triangles. Alternative super-minimalist approaches could be to cut a flat bar at alternating 90 and 45 degrees, forming crude American tanto blades, without loosing any material besides from when grinding the edge and drilling holes for lanyards
 
So approximate steel costs for a 12” OAL fixed blade in 80CRV2 would run about $10, same sized blade in 3V would be around $25, I’d say on the high end. The cost of the steel is not a major cost factor in the end product.
If your mantra is waste not want not, I can get behind that too but it’s not a money saving revelation that will make or break you.
 
Back
Top