Misuse

M

MrPres

Joined
Sep 12, 2005
Messages
345
Okay, maybe I need to be straightened out here, but everyone talks so much about, "it's a great knife as long as you don't misuse it..." Well, isn't that the reason that we buy high end knives (and I'm not talking about the $2000 custom knives that you don't ever take out of the case)? I mean, if all I wanted to do was cut in the manner prescribed, wouldn't a $15 Wal-Mart job do the trick? I buy high quality knives because if I have to do something a little "outside the box" it'll stand up to it and keep on smiling at me! Just ranting and raving here I guess, but if anyone has any thoughts about this, by all means... ;)
 
Depends on the knife. There are knives that are built to be abused and there are knives built to excel in cutting performance, and everything inbetween. Other knives are just really really pretty, so despite how they perform I reserve those for formal occasions or light duty.

Edit: To clarify, I wouldn't use a Spyderco Military to chop through overgrown bamboo in my yard, and I wouldn't use a Battle Mistress to trim off a shirt tag.
 
It is a good question. But, there is no "official" meaning of the word misuse or use considering knives.

Some say: "If it breaks, it was misuse" and would never ask if the knife was wrong. Some say the other way.

I think besides of telling everybody how great own knives are, forums exist to come to closer definitions of these words.

Just because one material is high end doesn´t mean it will do magic.
 
MrPres said:
...isn't that the reason that we buy high end knives
Click to expand...

Some higher end knives are optomized for higher cutting ability and edge retention so they can actually be less durable than cheaper knives.

-Cliff
 
My definition of misuse is using the wrong tool (knife) for the job at hand. This is where breakage occurs, IMHO.

I would not try to use a filet knife as a hoof knife. It may be a great fileter of fish but it would be seriously misused under a horse.

A paring knive might be great for cutting up tomatoes but not worth a flip when carving roast beast.

If the knife will sit it the drawer and be used only rarely it probably doesn't make sense to spend hundreds of dollars for one unless you just enjoy the engineering, design, artistic quality, bragging rights, etc. of the knife.
 
A Ferrari and a Hummer are both expensive, high-end vehicles. One can have the living daylights beaten out of it off-road and the other can't. Same thing applies to knives.

Sure, a $15.00 Wal-Mart special will cut your sandwich just like a Sebenza. And a Kia will get you to work just as well as a BMW. By all means, buy whatever suits you.
 
If you want a good explanation for this, go to Burt Foster's web site and read his philosophy on knives...I printed it out and sometimes read it just for inspiration... :thumbup:
 
Burt Foster said:
In this country, much if the do-whatever-it-takes individualism is being replaced by the ease and cheapness of mass production. We have become a society that is overcome with disposability. At a gas station recently, I saw a small bucket of folding knives for $4.99 each. Now they weren’t great knives, but they would probably have gotten the job done in most cases. The guy who buys a knife like that is happy he picked up something for so little, and when he loses it, he won’t feel too bad.

Our fathers and grandfathers would buy something as simple as a knife with great pride, not even considering what might happen if they lost it. They weren’t going to lose it. They made their decision based on whether it would get the job done as well as anything they could afford, and the fact that they assumed that some day, they would pass that knife on to their son (or daughter). The way we are going, our children will inherit not land or property, but a mortgaged house and a bunch of max’ed out credit cards. They won’t get their mother’s china, but her paper plates.

I would like to see people slowing down and thinking beyond next week. If you drive a car 120 miles per hour, you can’t concentrate on anything more than a few seconds out, but if you drive 15 miles per hour, you can look far down the road, and past it to the distant hills, and more importantly, wonder what lies beyond. Our society usually doesn’t permit us to live at 15 miles per hour, but if we can step down sometimes and consider the future, not for a day or a week, but for a generation or two, we would put greater value on things that will last. While I’m digressing, let me digress further. If you’re not sure where you are going after you shuffle off this mortal coil, you may want to find out before you get any further…

Now, a great handmade knife is sometimes bought buy someone who has a bunch of disposable income for whom the purchase is not a big financial decision. There are people who have seemingly endless collections, and they can afford to add to them almost forever. I thank God for those people! They have kept many a starving knifemaker alive! Most of my knives, though, are purchased by regular folks. They are not interested in resale value, but in having something great that they can be proud of and that their kids might actually fight about someday! To find out more, contact me.

My rantings are nearly at an end. I say nearly because I’m sure I will find something else I want to say that I think someone might be interested in, so when I do, I’ll stop in and add it. Thanks for stopping by! I hope it has been interesting for you.

Thanks again,

Burt
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Link..........
 
I'll add to what others have said (in addition to Burt above) and say that with any hobby or pursuit you can get in "cheap" and take it to almost any level of you like.

Name a hobby and I can find a product in that hobby that someone else (or me) will say is too much money.

Many people who frequent these forums seek to find their own threshold for when a knife is "too much".

The car analogy is really perfect. Finding "the best" knife is not just about getting the job done. It's about pride in ownership, a status symbol ... or name your cliche'.

The people who knock $500 custom knives are just those who either don't have the desire (or money) to move past where they're at on the knife ladder and that's fine. Their knife will cut just like mine will, and we probably both have the same amount of pride in making that cut.

Steel alone does not make a knife worth a lot of money, worth is determined when a buyer is willing to lay down the money to pay for something.

Abuse is more determined by choosing the right tool for the job. If you know you may be abusing a smaller folder buy a bigger one, could be less money or more. I know of a couple of $75 knives that would take more abuse than some $500 ones, does not make the $500 not worth every penny of that.
 
Alot of very good points here. But I wasn't trying to knock someone who pays alot of money for a beautiful custom knife, if I had the cash right now, I'd do it myself. I was more talking about knives that were meant for "hard knocks" like the Manix, or maybe an SnG or something. These knives (at least I think) aren't meant for collecting beauty (even though the strider has IMHO that ugliest most beautiful thing ever look), those knives were meant to perform. But point taken about not using a fillet knife for horses feet. Guess I was just a little too broad in my definition of abuse.
 
Misuse and abuse have become selling points in the knife world.

It is the latest trend in making one of man's oldest tools unique enough to grab a market share.

There are many that think that market share/genre of knives are the only ones worthy enough to own.
 
When I buy a less expensive knife and it isn't that great I live with it, but when I spend big bucks and it doesn't perform I get really upset.

Some brands hold up better and some don't. If you have the money just get a new knife everytime you dull your old and a new car everytime the ash tray fills up with ashes or pocket change. To each their own. Its your knife use it as you see fit. Thats how I see it anyway.
 
I would place the following under misue of a typical non tool-type knife(such as a leatherman, etc.):

Heavy prying - like opening wood crates
Using it as a screwdriver
Stabbing the point directly into hardwoods, or car roofs...
Throwing it(assuming it's not a throwing knife)
Pounding - using it to hammer
Dropping it - yes it's an accident, but that's a misuse

Basically, the vast majority of knives are made to cut. With a few exceptions, some are made to baton and chop. Outside of these uses, you are begging for failure sooner or later even with over-built knives, regardless of price. No amount of money is going to change the laws of physics...

WYK
 
WYK said:
Basically, the vast majority of knives are made to cut.
Click to expand...

The cross sections on the vast majority of knives is way thicker than necessary if they were just used for cutting, both in terms of steel stock and primary and edge grinds. They are made from thicker stock with heavier grinds to allow such use. Not to mention that you don't pick very tough tool steels and use bainite or differential martensite tempering if the blade isn't going to be used for any of the above.

-Clif
 
WYK said:
I would place the following under misue of a typical non tool-type knife(such as a leatherman, etc.):

Heavy prying - like opening wood crates
Using it as a screwdriver
Stabbing the point directly into hardwoods, or car roofs...
Throwing it(assuming it's not a throwing knife)
Pounding - using it to hammer
Dropping it - yes it's an accident, but that's a misuse

Basically, the vast majority of knives are made to cut. With a few exceptions, some are made to baton and chop. Outside of these uses, you are begging for failure sooner or later even with over-built knives, regardless of price. No amount of money is going to change the laws of physics...

WYK
Click to expand...
What's funny is I can think of at least one knife designed to do at least one of each of these things. :)
 
Cliff Stamp said:
The cross sections on the vast majority of knives is way thicker than necessary if they were just used for cutting, both in terms of steel stock and primary and edge grinds. They are made from thicker stock with heavier grinds to allow such use. Not to mention that you don't pick very tough tool steels and use bainite or differential martensite tempering if the blade isn't going to be used for any of the above.

-Clif
Click to expand...

Read my last few lines - even overbuilt knives will eventually fail if you use them to pound and pry for any length of time. ASSUMING it started out life as a knife.
You do this on a consistant basis, Cliff - you ruin knives and call it 'reviewing'. I could have saved you a good amount of time and told you that you were going to destroy the knife in just about every review where you've done it.

If the MAIN reason for a knife is not to cut, what is it?
Generally speaking, if the main reason for a tool is not to be used for cutting, it's usually referred to as something else. IE: Axe, Cleaver, pry bar, screwdriver, etc. I could cut you pretty badly, and stab ya real well with a screwdriver. But that's not it's intended purpose, and a very rare use for such a device that would otherwise be best left to a tool that was made for such things. Otherwise, by definition, it is not a knife. It is a multi tool, or a camping tool, etc. Even so, I still maintain that the VAST MAJORITY of knives are made to cut. Anyone can cite rare exceptions. Just because we often own, buy, and use the rare exception, doesn't mean that the general populace does. In other words, you've lost your prespective. If you take an average knife and subject it to my afforementioned 'misuses' it will fail sooner or later. All one needs do is look at Cliff's reviews. If you happen to own a rare exception, then you wouldn't need to read a thread about misuse.

The market will take what it will bear. I have wood in my car. It doesn't need to be there, but it's nice to have it. I do, however, heat treat my blades as best I can so that they will be strong and hold an edge as long as possible. All part of being a knife. If my knife is well heat treated, and lasts longer, that's great, but it doesn't make it a screwdriver, Cliff. Go ask Busse, Reeves, Strider, et al if they will replace your knife after you messed up the tip by using it as a leatherman and see how far it gets ya.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=786


WYK
 
If the MAIN reason for a knife is not to cut, what is it?
Click to expand...

For tactical/survival/rescue/emergency knives, the kind of the things you mentioned, and these knives are a large part of the current market, the majority for many companies and makers in fact, for some it is their entire market.

You don't use heavy stock on the high toughness tool steels for a knife designed for light cutting only. Knives that are intended to be restricted to pure light cutting tools are in fact rare exceptions, they look like this :

http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/images/aj_utility.jpg

O1 steel, tempered to a maximum hardness of 63.5 HRC, ground from 1/16" stock, with a full height hollow grind, edge is left 0.012" thick, 1/4" back from the edge it is 0.020" thick. Edge angle is 3-5 degrees per side.

Many of the tactical/heavy utility knives are in fact made from the same very tough tool steels that are used to make jackhammer bits, prybars, hammers and so forth. They are steels designed to take impacts and loads not to retain a fine cutting edge.

-Cliff
 
:o "Well, isn't that the reason that we buy high end knives (and I'm not talking about the $2000 custom knives that you don't ever take out of the case)? I mean, if all I wanted to do was cut in the manner prescribed, wouldn't a $15 Wal-Mart job do the trick?"

Well, if that's the reason you buy high end knives, then there's nothing wrong with that.

However, I buy high end knives (actually more mid-range than high end) because I want certain features in a knife:

A very strong and reliable lock on my folders.
A "stainless" blade-steel that will not dull easily.
A blade that has a very effective design and grind and geometry.
A folder with easy one-hand opening and closing.
A folder with a pocket-clip.
A folder with a strong and comfortable handle.
A folder with very good fit-and-finish.
A knife that instills "pride of ownership".
And preferably one that is made in the USA.

Truthfully, I have yet to find all of that in a $15.00 dollar knife.

Allen.
 
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