Mixed Weapons Sparring.

Dave Fulton · Dec 14, 1999

Hey!

I figured I'd toss out a subject so that we wouldn't have to change the forum's name to "Smoke's FCA Forum". Btw, thanks Smoke for keeping the forum active as well as for the info.

Questions:

Do any of you spar with weapons other than: solo baston, doble baston, daga, doble daga, baston y daga? If so, what other weapons do you spar with and why?

Do any of you spar one weapon against another (ex. solo baston v. nunchaku or doble baston v. sibat or empty hand v. solo baston)? If so, what weapons do you pit against each other and why?

What have you learned from doing this?

For the purpose of this discussion, sparring refers to two people trying to really hit each other, while avoiding being hit back. It doesn't matter if you follow the WEKAF, Dog Brothers, etc. format, so long as the exchanges are spontaneous and hits are with power (ie not "one step" or "touch" sparring). Also, a "daga" refers to a short stick representing a knife, since I seriously doubt anyone really "spars" (see above definition) with live blades.

Sincerely,

Dave Fulton

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Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."

[This message has been edited by Dave Fulton (edited 14 December 1999).]

Smoke · Dec 14, 1999

Thanks Dave. Mixed weapons sparring is a kick, the main thing I've learned is that there is no cute feel good flow we get in drills or sets.

In my FMA days, we did double stick vs same, double stick vs staff, bokken vs double or single.

These days I get to play more.

Sword, Sword & shield, or double butterfly sword vs sword, double sword or stick, mace, softball bat, stick or staff is the general theme. The specifics would take too long and overrate me or something. Make no mistake, I'm not Macyoung, Worden, Thaddeus, Snick, SB, Sing, or Bram.

I've learned also, that what you bring to the party can change things. I own a a 2 swords, a "few" knives, a Indian Persian shield which got dented from a 'broken' stick during practice, and slowly getting some knife trainers.

Anyhow, swords and blades range from Chinese, Filipino, Indian, English, US. With a few escrima sticks, training swords and knives.

We do some live blade sparring but because I have a talent for injuring myself with blades, slow to medium is the recommended for me. I hope fully can rectify that and try to each time. It's an interesting thing to see your own blood on your own sword. Luckily, I've started to calm down now and actually start to learn.

At this point, it's not about learning anything extremely new but working on the existing skills, taking out bad habits, putting in some new habits, understanding techniques, and most importantly playing with another person.

sing · Dec 14, 1999

Smoke,

Whoa, Man... You got me mixed with the wrong company. The bulk of my training is in empty hand. I just started weapons training in the last three years. Ways to go before even considering myself a novice in that arena.

sing

AKTI #A000356.

Smoke · Dec 14, 1999

Sing, my friend it's about the guts to train and back yourself up. That's why I included you, it's not about your array of hardware or anything.

Dave Fulton · Dec 15, 1999

I think my previous post was a bit difficult to follow because of how I wrote it, so let's try again.

It really boils down to this:

What weapons do spar (see my original post for definition) with and what have you learned?

Example:

We have found that the orthodox method of using nunchaku (anyone know the filipino name?) that one sees in karate kata will get you mauled in full-contact sparring.

Dave Fulton

------------------
Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."

Smoke · Dec 15, 1999

Dave, because of the many dialects, there is probably more than one name.

For my relatives it's 'chaku', from Dan Inosanto, it's Tabak Toyok

Re: Discovery. I discovered all that nifty twirling with a staff in the movies is good at wearing you out. Padded armor does not equal 'light' and some people are willing to take shots they would never do without the armor.

Dave Fulton · Dec 16, 1999

Smoke,

Thanks for the terminology!

On the sibat (staff) and how to fight with it. What do you think of the two methods in terms of grips? I'm refering to how some hold it from the center with 1/3 of the sibat extending on either side of their body, and some hold it from one end with 2/3 of the sibat extended in front of them (like a spear)?

Dave.

Smoke · Dec 16, 1999

Well Dave, funny you asked because I just got schooled on it.LOL

Let's get two terms for grips you described, if you don't mind.
Spear hold, where the 2/3 are forward
Robin Hood Hold, where equal parts on each side.

I prefer both ways however when I learned Escrima my teacher held the staff/spear with the 2/3 forward BUT his hands are positioned as if 1/3 on either side. So basically he used a Spear position with a Robin Hood grip.

Rene Latosa's tape on the long stick shows this short compact system. I've been told that this method was actually based on the spear and that the power you can generate is pretty deceptive, that is, I doesn't look like a full power horse decapitating stroke.

Dave Fulton · Dec 17, 1999

Smoke,

Can you give more details about the grip you're talking about? The one you said your escrima guro used and is on the Latosa tape (it sounds like they used the same one). I'm not sure I'm following you.

Thanks.

Dave

------------------
Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."

Smoke · Dec 17, 1999

Dave, sorry bout that, I have a hard time explaining how I trained in FMA. I learned under Rene Latosa and his students, one of which is now teaching me Wing Chun.

The grip is best described as a Pole Vaulter's grip. You hold the spear/staff with the 2/3rds in front but you hold with both hands in a palms down grip ala a pole vaulter, push up position, etc. It need not be extreme that you can't have a little bit of say a 12" punyo, it's just that you don't have an equal 1/3 on each side.

In regards to sparring, this grip was not mandatory. The first time I sparred with a safety staff aka homemade pugil stick, I twirled it thinking I could keep the guy at bay. It kept him at bay but expended my energy.

We sparred staff vs. double stick to work on the range and entries. There is a STRONG temptation to start with 2 sticks, close, drop 1, control the staff, and hammer down.

Dave Fulton · Dec 17, 1999

I'm with you now Smoke. I hold it from one end with 2/3 in front of me and one hand up and the other down.

Your "pole vaulter's" grip doesn't sound as "flexible" regarding what you can do, but I'd have to play with it to know for sure. It does seem like it would lend itself to a nasty thrust though. This is all based upon just sitting here visualizing. I'll try to play with it this weekend though.

Thanks.

Dave.

Joe S · Dec 17, 1999

Done mixed sparring with swords, sticks, knives (different kinds/sizes/shapes), shields, staves, spears, flails like nunchaku, and empty hands against most of these (not fun, but illustrates how undergunned you are without anything).

Some of the most important things I've learned was a better concept of range (sucks to go double knife against double stick or sword), the way many people make similar motions with different weapons, that using/detecting feints is important, that shields, while possibly unrealistic, are a bitch to go up against. Most importantly, I've been reminded that it really sucks to break bones.

Stay Sharp,
Joe S.

Eliashan · Dec 19, 1999

Smoke:
One small point, Robin Hood, if he existed, almost certainly would NOT have held a staff that way. But that's nit-picking now isn't it *S*

the Khazar Kid · Dec 19, 1999

Here's the old western terminology for staff-weapon grips:

quarterstaff: the weapon is gripped at one end with the point toward the enemy "spear-style". One "point" end of the weapon is primarily used. The name comes from how the weapon is gripped by a quarter of it's length.

halfstaff: Here the weapon is gripped halfway, at the middle, thus the name. Both ends of the staff-weapon are used about equally. I have heard that this style is preffered in Japanese Bojutsu, Arabic Nabut, and Hollywood movie portrayals of "Robin Hood".

Dave Fulton · Dec 20, 1999

Ok, just to clarify something that I keep seeing come up.

Note that in my first post on this thread I defined "sparring" (for the purpose of this discussion). I'm talking about full speed & power, spontaneous (ie not pre-arranged, flow drills, or "one-step" or "touch" sparring) sparring. In other words, is your intent to really "gut" the other person or run them through with your knife or sword? Are you blades sharp?

I ask because, having sparred full-contact with sticks and short sticks (to represent a knife), I have serious doubts that your average FMA player could engage someone in this manner (with this intent) if blades were involved because one or both would be dead or disabled. Maybe the highest level players, the "Masters", could do it but most of us are not "Masters".

I'm not calling anyone a liar, but I don't think we're talking about the same thing with regards to "sparring".

Respectfully,

Dave.

Fenris · Dec 20, 1999

Dave, I'm just curious about what equipment you use in full speed/power spontaneous sparring.

In my mind, sparring can be at full speed and be spontaneous by definition BUT with your lightest sticks and minimal power. Power can be achieved at any time.

This is done with no gear. Once equipment is introduced into sparring matches that I've seen between a lot of people, techniqe goes out the window and people just try to get shots in.

Jason

Dave Fulton · Dec 21, 1999

Jason,

We use headgear, lacrosse gloves and forearm pads (soft, football style-these come off as you progress). That's it. Very minimal protection with the acception of the headgear which is specially made. We compensate with the mind set that any solid contact to the head-gear equals lights out, and protect the head with technique and footwork! The rest of the body is totally unprotected, so if you get hit anywhere else, you know it!

No "crash 'n bash" here.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton

------------------
Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."

Smoke · Dec 20, 1999

In my FMA days, let's just say we would need a fund raiser to get some decent sparring gear. In fact, I provided most of the arm guards I got from my TKD days.

No flow drills, and blows are thrown in the spirit of combat but not as crazy.

With blades, I throw with full intent while my teacher varies b/c I am just not even close to being in his league yet. A lot of times with weapons, things become 'easy'.

That it is, it's 'easy' to accidentally poke through your friend's clothing less than half an inch with a blade and not realize it. I recall wondering where I got 4 small cuts on my weapon arm and 1 on my freehand during a break. I've actually learned 'pulling a blow' is a bastardized idea and that it's as much mental control and other stuff.

Dave Fulton · Dec 20, 1999

I just want to make sure everyone understands, that I'm not saying that anyone is lying. I just want to make sure we're all talking about the same thing here, and in some cases I don't think we are.

There are things that are only going to become apparent when you spar full-contact. Examples are: my comment about the orthodox karate method of flipping/twirling the nunchaku (tobak toyak -sp?- thanks Smoke); and "twirling" a staff that someone mentioned. Another is the ol' "Against a samurai sword, you just "X" block and hit the hand.". Try that on an experienced Kendo player

Yes, a shinai isn't a sword, but after trying it once you'll be glad it was a shinai and not a sword.

These things become apparent in full-contact sparring, because the other person IS trying to hit with as much speed and power as they can. The result is that things don't always happen the way you expect. Also, there are things I would try if it were "light" or no-contact, that I would never try if I knew they were coming at me full bore. I don't think it's practical to do this with edged weapons because of the attrition. What you can do however, is take what you learn from the full-contact sparring, along with what you know of edged weapons (from flow drills, controlled sparring, etc) and extrapolate. Comments?

I hope I haven't offended anyone here.

Sincerely,

Dave Fulton

------------------
Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."

[This message has been edited by Dave Fulton (edited 20 December 1999).]

Fenris · Dec 20, 1999

Dave, I think that you make a good point. One can never reproduce what it is like to spar with real knives because such training is not realistic. The daga y daga I have seen between instructors at my school usually ends after a good thrust is made. Each person knows that every nick or slash means they are closer to death. It takes experienced individuals to get a lot out of knife to knife sparring. Grabbing a rubber knife and just "going at it" can actually be detrimental to training.

I'm glad that you keep gear to a minimum and focus a lot on technique and footwork. One just has to go to a tournament to see people going wild and not doing kali once they have gear.

Jason