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Mixing diamond pastes?

Joined
Nov 7, 2013
Messages
466
I was considering mixing some of my rougher diamond compound with finer for a faster cutting strop that still leaves a good polish. I've got some 8k polish and some 16k, the 8k leaves a finish and edge very similar to my 8k stone and cuts fast enough to hone a very slightly dulled edge while the 16k is too fine for that. I guess I'm trying to get a similar effect to white compound, quick cutting but still fine. The 8k and 16k seem to be one or the other ends. Think this would work or would the 8k totally drown out the 16k to where I might as well just stuck with 8k?
 
Mixing pastes would result in something that behaves like the lower grit paste only watered down.

If that makes sense.
 
If you have a good supply and want to toy around, give it a try. Most of the multi grit formulas use larger abrasives, generally something in the 15-20u/3u, Flexcut Gold runs in the 6u/.5u range and works very well. Am pretty sure this is about as fine as most of the multi-grit compounds go, but with diamonds you might get similar effect with smaller particles.

Will take some noodling to get a feel for it, as a general strategy it is proven to work well. You will lose some refinement from the pure 16k but will be more refined than the 8k by itself, if the diamonds react anything like SiC or AlumOx as you use them. A blend of one third or one quarter larger grit to the balance being finer seems to work very well.
 
Unlike SiC and some AlOx compounds, diamond isn't known for being friable (breaking down to smaller particle size with use). SiC and AlOx can sometimes behave as you described, starting very aggressive and finishing with higher polish (due to it breaking down). With diamond, I'd think the coarser grit will forever dominate and limit how refined the edge will get, no matter which finer diamond compound you mix it with. I see no advantage to mixing them. If looking for some 'polish' within the scratch pattern of the coarser grit, just follow that with light stropping on the finer grit, perhaps with a very light application of it on the strop, to limit how quickly it alters the coarser scratch pattern. Could also use the finer grit on a somewhat more forgiving backing/substrate, which would also limit how much it alters the finish from the coarser grit.

(The above is why makers/distributors of diamond compound strongly caution against cross-contamination between different strops using different sizes of diamond compounds. Once the coarser grit is on the finer strop, it'll always be there leaving coarser scratches, and the 'finer' strop will never behave the same way.)

All that being said, if you really want to try, at least do so at smaller scale on an expendable strop for experimental use. If it doesn't work as expected, you'll avoid contaminating what might've been one of your favorite strops.


David
 
Unlike SiC and some AlOx compounds, diamond isn't known for being friable (breaking down to smaller particle size with use). SiC and AlOx can sometimes behave as you described, starting very aggressive and finishing with higher polish (due to it breaking down). With diamond, I'd think the coarser grit will forever dominate and limit how refined the edge will get, no matter which finer diamond compound you mix it with. I see no advantage to mixing them. If looking for some 'polish' within the scratch pattern of the coarser grit, just follow that with light stropping on the finer grit, perhaps with a very light application of it on the strop, to limit how quickly it alters the coarser scratch pattern. Could also use the finer grit on a somewhat more forgiving backing/substrate, which would also limit how much it alters the finish from the coarser grit.

(The above is why makers/distributors of diamond compound strongly caution against cross-contamination between different strops using different sizes of diamond compounds. Once the coarser grit is on the finer strop, it'll always be there leaving coarser scratches, and the 'finer' strop will never behave the same way.)

All that being said, if you really want to try, at least do so at smaller scale on an expendable strop for experimental use. If it doesn't work as expected, you'll avoid contaminating what might've been one of your favorite strops.


David

When used in a stropping compound the abrasives don't really break down, they start and finish in pretty much the same size. Used on a strop and even on softer woods like balsa, there just isn't enough force applied to crack those abrasives, not even silicon carbide, though for sure there is some wear and tear on the abrasives themselves over time and they will lose their sharp corners. I'm not even sure they break down to an appreciable degree used on hardwood with light to moderate pressure.

This is somewhat misunderstood and one really needs run a few trials to get a feel for it. I recall Lee Valley catching flack for having different grit sizes in their honing compound (despite nothing being implied on the label), but it was actually manufactured that way on purpose - their house brand is made by Formax, and they are plenty capable of making a precisely graded compound (and do so in their microhoning green compound sold at Woodcraft among other). I have to believe Flexcut is also quite capable of making (or having made for them - I don't know what the origin is for that stuff) a precisely graded compound yet they also do not. It really does give a crossover effect that is not like the constituent particles in a homogenous preparation.

As you say, mixing will certainly permanently alter the strop being used, and then the diamonds might not react in quite the same way as these other compounds, not the least of which might be that most diamond pastes are nothing like a stick compound in terms of binder vehicle. Getting the binder right is the toughest part of a good compound IMHO, the paste used in most diamond products is probably a poor fit for this application.

Edit to add:
Full disclosure, the compound I make for my Washboard kits is multi-grit, two grades used exactly as I described above. I must have run close to 40 trials with single grit, multi grit, single grit with values an average of the multi grit components, etc etc. For general use up to a very bright finish, the dual grit strategy outperformed the single grit every time. Once you get into using it for cosmetic reasons, or for very fine finishes in the sub-micron range, one is definitely better off with a well-graded single grit (this is a serious consideration when dealing with the proposed apprx 1u/.25u ? for the OP - is possibly/likely outside the useful range of this strategy). When it comes to honing at fairly fine levels the multi grit has a lot to offer.
 
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When used in a stropping compound the abrasives don't really break down, they start and finish in pretty much the same size. Used on a strop and even on softer woods like balsa, there just isn't enough force applied to crack those abrasives, not even silicon carbide, though for sure there is some wear and tear on the abrasives themselves over time and they will lose their sharp corners. I'm not even sure they break down to an appreciable degree used on hardwood with light to moderate pressure.

This is somewhat misunderstood and one really needs run a few trials to get a feel for it. I recall Lee Valley catching flack for having different grit sizes in their honing compound (despite nothing being implied on the label), but it was actually manufactured that way on purpose - their house brand is made by Formax, and they are plenty capable of making a precisely graded compound (and do so in their microhoning green compound sold at Woodcraft among other). I have to believe Flexcut is also quite capable of making (or having made for them - I don't know what the origin is for that stuff) a precisely graded compound yet they also do not. It really does give a crossover effect that is not like the constituent particles in a homogenous preparation.

As you say, mixing will certainly permanently alter the strop being used, and then the diamonds might not react in quite the same way as these other compounds, not the least of which might be that most diamond pastes are nothing like a stick compound in terms of binder vehicle. Getting the binder right is the toughest part of a good compound IMHO, the paste used in most diamond products is probably a poor fit for this application.

Many AlOx compounds are actually designed to break down, with friability and toughness being engineered specs by which users can pick & choose the grit, based on desired end-use (friability info can be found on AlOx abrasives mfr's sites, for the raw AlOx grits available; there are likely thousands of variations). I mentioned the breaking down of some AlOx compounds, because I have noticed such apparent behavior in changing aggressiveness with polishing pastes like Simichrome (AlOx grit spec'd by it's maker at ~9µ). I've always noticed it starts very aggressively, but then slows in cutting speed with use and yielding higher polish on well-used strops. I've noticed my Simichrome strop needed much more frequent replenishment with fresh compound, because they'd lose effectiveness more rapidly; I'd notice my edges weren't finishing as crisply as when the compound was fresh. My white rouge strops, on the other hand, have kept working as well as when new, in spite of them very quickly becoming black with use; I'd assume that compound hasn't broken down at all. SiC has always been known to be relatively brittle by comparison to AlOx, which makes it break down pretty quickly (much narrower range of friability and toughness) and polish more with some wear.

But, that being said, with two mixed compounds that don't break down, the coarser is always going to dominate how fine the finish can get. There's no getting around it. I'm sure the mixed effect in the end will be different in some fashion; and if that fits for what the user is looking for, so be it. I still see no advantage in doing so with diamond in particular, at least nothing that can't already be done with two strops in sequence.


David
 
Many AlOx compounds are actually designed to break down, with friability and toughness being engineered specs by which users can pick & choose the grit, based on desired end-use (friability info can be found on AlOx abrasives mfr's sites, for the raw AlOx grits available; there are likely thousands of variations). I mentioned the breaking down of some AlOx compounds, because I have noticed such apparent behavior in changing aggressiveness with polishing pastes like Simichrome (AlOx grit spec'd by it's maker at ~9µ). I've always noticed it starts very aggressively, but then slows in cutting speed with use and yielding higher polish on well-used strops. I've noticed my Simichrome strop needed much more frequent replenishment with fresh compound, because they'd lose effectiveness more rapidly; I'd notice my edges weren't finishing as crisply as when the compound was fresh. My white rouge strops, on the other hand, have kept working as well as when new, in spite of them very quickly becoming black with use; I'd assume that compound hasn't broken down at all. SiC has always been known to be relatively brittle by comparison to AlOx, which makes it break down pretty quickly (much narrower range of friability and toughness) and polish more with some wear.

But, that being said, with two mixed compounds that don't break down, the coarser is always going to dominate how fine the finish can get. There's no getting around it. I'm sure the mixed effect in the end will be different in some fashion; and if that fits for what the user is looking for, so be it. I still see no advantage in doing so with diamond in particular, at least nothing that can't already be done with two strops in sequence.


David

Having never worked with Simichrome or Mother's Mag polish, I cannot comment with any confidence on those materials, neither have I personally worked with multi-grit diamond compounds.

Not to be too much of a contrarian, but I can say of all the AlumOx, SiC, CrO materials I have worked with, I have yet to find one that broke down to any appreciable extent on a hardwood lap or strop. Not even SiC breaks down to any appreciable degree unless a great deal of force is applied relative to what one commonly uses on a strop. Unless held very firmly in place, SiC tends to glaze over rapidly into a dull, blocky shape rather than breaking down into smaller, sharp particles. I would question the ability of an abrasive to be of any use on hardened steel that could be broken down between steel and leather or denim unless at high speed on powered equipment.

Most of the manufactured friability of abrasives is relative to powered grinding operations or situations where the abrasive is held in a vitreous bond or well-bonded belt. Even materials that are more friable tend to fracture off very small pieces and continue cutting sharp and consistent for a length of time before losing effectiveness, they do not normally present as an increasingly fine abrasive unless ground between two very hard surfaces. Is more likely that materials which appear to grind to a higher polish (especially if they seem to struggle at the same time) after a bit of use are doing so due to glazing of the abrasive rather than break down. Indeed, the initial fix for abrasive glazing is to help it break down more readily by applying more force, more speed, or a less conformable contact surface - failing that one would use a "super" abrasive (CBN, diamond) or switch to more friable material.

One can apply some abrasive and a little oil if necessary to release an abrasive from the vehicle, to a piece of clear maple, red oak, scuffed aluminum even, and get a good idea of how friable it might be. Materials that break down readily on the surface of a vitreous stone and continue to cut sharp, do not appear to fracture down anywhere near as easily on softer backings at moderate amounts of force.

There are plenty of reasons why a preparation might lose its fiz, starting with glazing - the actual sharp corners of the material being rounded over. Another factor might be loading - the vehicle becoming swamped with swarf, or interfering with the abrasive after being pressed into a conformable surface.

Moving into the multi-grit strategy, I completely disagree with the assumption the larger particle size will dominate, though it will make its presence felt, and if properly managed will negatively limit the level of refinement to only a very small degree. Using Flexcut as an example, few individuals would note any real difference with a visual inspection or cut test between the final finish of the Flexcut compared to the final finish of a single grit compound at the smaller end of the Flexcut size distribution. What most or all will notice is an immediate reduction in stock removal/recondition speed and ability to recondition greater amounts of edge wear, all other things being equal. It all comes down to nailing the distribution and proper vehicle and backing selection.
 
If you have a good supply and want to toy around, give it a try. Most of the multi grit formulas use larger abrasives, generally something in the 15-20u/3u, Flexcut Gold runs in the 6u/.5u range and works very well. Am pretty sure this is about as fine as most of the multi-grit compounds go, but with diamonds you might get similar effect with smaller particles.

Will take some noodling to get a feel for it, as a general strategy it is proven to work well. You will lose some refinement from the pure 16k but will be more refined than the 8k by itself, if the diamonds react anything like SiC or AlumOx as you use them. A blend of one third or one quarter larger grit to the balance being finer seems to work very well.

If my math is correct,
mixing 1 part 6 micron to 3 parts 0.5 micron by volume
would be a 1 part in 3(6/.5)^3 particles
or about 1 part in 5000 of 6 micron particles by number.
 
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