MMHW Bowie vs Becker Brute?

Joined
May 16, 2001
Messages
31
Thanks for all the wisdom and advice. I have reduced my choices between these two knives. I have read/re-read Joe Talmadge's excellent article.My question concerns blade geometry: the hollow grind of the MMHW Survival Bowie and the flat grind of the Becker Brute. Which grind holds up best to rough work? I know that each is made with a different steel, so asking for a comparison may be impossible or unfair. But, I need to know what you think.
Thanks,
Scott

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S.A. Surgner
ssurgner@bellatlantic.net
 
I have owned both and still have the Brute. I like the Brute best but between the 2 it's only a matter of which design suits you best. In use neither would ever let you down and that's under abusive treatment. I do think the MMHW would hold value down the road a little better than the Brute.Have fun with whichever 1 you decide on.


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Bill Siegle
was4u@cs.com

Bill Siegle Custom Knives
http://www.geocities.com/siegleknives
Camp and Japanese Styled Knives a Specialty
 
I haven't owned either, but I have some input on the grind issue. A flat grind is generally better for chopping because it is stronger. However, a hollow grind is more effiecient in slicing and general cutting. I emailed John at MMHW in regard to getting a flat-ground survival bowie (I also wanted to remove the false edge, BTW, which John said was easily done). He said the following:

"Ted doesn't generally do flat grids because he's found that the strength of his steel/tempering is very resilient to chopping. Granted, a flat grind would probably be a bit stronger, but the compromise in cutting ability isn't worth it to him."

So, if Ted's confident, that's enough for me.

With the MMHW bowies, you can get a 12" blade, which offers a heck of a lot of chopping power, and quite a bit more than a 9.5" blade. That's one of the main reasons I'm interested in MMHW.

[This message has been edited by Andrew Lynch (edited 06-05-2001).]
 
Howdy all. I'd like to clarify a little bit on what Andrew said about my take on the grind issue. Edge geometry is very important in something that will be used for chopping, and without taking into account the OTHER elements, a flat grind may generally be considered superior. However, edge strength is determined by other variables as well, such as steel grade and heat treatment. To consider only one of these elements in making a decision about a knife purchase is a mistake. Any particular steel's strength depends on the skill and process of the maker's heat treatment. The edge geometry, while being a very important variable when considering what your knife will be used for, should be seen as only part of the big picture.

Here's a quote from Ted Frizzell on the issue (responding to Andrew's inquiry): "Flat grind is less likely to chip out than a hollow if the heat treatment is not good. I make chopping tools and back up my work with my word."

I consider Ted's big knives and axes to be some of the best for chopping. That in spite of the fact that flat grinds are often thought of as the "only way to go" for chopping. I use my MMHW bowies for very hard chopping work, without ever a chip or rolling of the edge. Plus, they are great for more delicate cuting jobs- they stay sharper than heck. And they are unconditionally guaranteed.

Just my 2 cents. Thanks for the good words, all!

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John Gonzalez
Exclusive Dealer
Mineral Mountain Hatchet Works


[This message has been edited by Kumdo (edited 06-05-2001).]
 
I think that the MM Survival Bowie would be better, you could get it personalized by Ted Frizzell very easily, making the knife fit you all the better.

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Scott :

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">My question concerns blade geometry: the hollow grind of the MMHW Survival Bowie and the flat grind of the Becker Brute. Which grind holds up best to rough work?</font>

Assuming the steels are similar, and both are ground so as to achive the same level of penetration when chopping wood, the hollow grind will have a more durable edge in regards to chipping, rolling and deformation. However it has a *serious* drawback which is once the edge durability is exceeded, on a hollow grind you can blow out the primary grind readily, with a flat grind the blade thickens quickly behind the edge limiting the damage that the blade will see. Lateral impacts and twisting/torquing for example can blow apart hollow grinds while flat grinds will sustain no damage.

This isn't the whole picture though in regards to performance. Hollow grinds bind quite badly along the primary grind when chopping assuming the penetration is decent and if it isn't the question is moot anyway. So while you can get good performance in terms of number of chops, from a perspective of time or fatigue flat grinds are much better. It requires a significant amount of time and energy to free out a bound blade and as well prevents a smooth stroke rate.

The only other factor is that hollow grinds will stall heavily on deep cuts at the top of the grind. During most chopping however this is rarely a factor as you would have to be getting huge penetration assuming a decently high grind, and if the grind is shallow the penetration will be that low the blade will be a poor chopping because of a low cut depth. This is really only an issue on really soft wood (Alders) that are really thick (2"+), or other thick softer vegetation.

Convex grinds are the next step up from flat grinds and compare to them in a very similar way that flat grinds compare to hollow.

Does MMHW offer other grinds? Some of the blade shapes look interesting but sabre hollow grinds just don't have the kind of cutting ability I like. For example, this :

http://www.plan-a.org/mmhw/images/brushhog.jpg

or this :

http://www.plan-a.org/mmhw/images/survbow10.jpg

with a dual convex grind would be very nice.

-Cliff


[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 06-06-2001).]
 
Hello Cliff. In terms of knife knowledge, I'm way out of my league with you. You are known for your valuable and exhaustive knife testing, while I just sell them.

That said, I'd like to address your points on this edge issue. First, regarding the depletion of the hollow grind. It's true that once the edge is completely lost up to the start of the grind, the knife is left in poor state. If the steel is extremely durable though, the edge retention should be very resilient. If it is possible that one would actually completely blow out the edge to the primary grind, Ted will re-grind it for free. No questions asked. Just ask him how often this happens though. The nature of MMHW products is usability, not collectablity (these aren't exactly art knives), thus his guarantee.

Your next two points regard binding. It's true that a wide, wedge shaped flat grind will generally split instead of bind- more so than a hollow grind. If you are chopping wood, your best tool would be an ax, but if we are talking about bowies or large knives, it's assumed that they are intended for slicing as well. Wouldn't you say that the hollow grind is a good compromise for multiple tasks? Also, the thick stock combined with a large grind should be pretty resistant to binding in smallish targets.

For over 18 years, Ted has made many thousands of knives and axes. He bases his decisions on which edge geometry (along with steel, heat treatment and over-all design) to use on what he has found to work the best- not on what is easiest or will make him the most money. Knowing that products that don't excel at hefty tasks will be sent back to him, it behooves him to apply everything he's learned over the years into the best possible products. He generally doesn't offer other grinds, as he feels his "formula" works very well.

I'm sorry if I sound argumentative and further apologize for any ignorance I may have displayed on the subject. I'm still learning, so please feel free to keep the info coming!

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John Gonzalez
Exclusive Dealer
Mineral Mountain Hatchet Works
 
I have owned several MMHW knives. Irrespective of which type of grind may or may not be better; MMHW knives are as tough as any knife I have ever owned. If you are looking for a brutish knife - look no further.
 
Kumdo:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">If it is possible that one would actually completely blow out the edge to the primary grind, Ted will re-grind it for free.</font>

Depending on how the hollow grind is done, the damage could be that extensive that you would actually need to redo the primary grind and significantly alter the gross blade geometry. In regards to lateral impacts, depending on the nature of the hollow grind, these could actually blow nearly the whole thing out depending on the depth of the curvature. Hollow grinds are weak in this regard as the edge is not supported by the primary grind at all and in fact it is the other way around, which you don't want.

I should clarify however, that damage to the primary grind is a fairly extreme case. Outside of lateral impacts it is very difficult to do that much damage to an edge. The only times I have seen it happen on moderate impacts were with brittle steels (Carbon V). With a tougher steel this would take some doing indeed, something along the lines of cutting tempered glass, or case hardened bolts, even thick seasoned bone can't do this, nor will rock generally, it has the necessary hardness, but the contact area is usually too large.

The only real concerns I can see durability wise are (a) from a martial aspect, if you wanted the blade to be able to take hard lateral impacts (another blade, chain, metal bar etc.), and/or (b) if you wanted to be able to do heavy prying with the edge. Having a 1/4" spine doesn't do anything to help the edge if it is hollow ground to about 1/16" or so. Again, curvature is significant. Deep hollow grinds are very weak compared to shallow ones which are very close to flat grinds (which are just hollow grinds with an infinite radius of curvature).

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">If you are chopping wood, your best tool would be an ax</font>

Depends on the type and size of wood. Soft woods like Alders are readily cut with a decent heavy bowie much easier than using a hatchet and an axe is really overkill, same thing in general for most limbing and brush clearing in general as opposing to felling. Axes/hatchets are designed for really thick wood and deep penetration without binding. You want to be felling really large wood before a hatchet outperforms a decent large blade, along the lines of building a cabin or similar.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">if we are talking about bowies or large knives, it's assumed that they are intended for slicing as well.</font>

Yes, but I would not pick a sabre hollow grind for that.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Wouldn't you say that the hollow grind is a good compromise for multiple tasks?</font>

A hollow grind is highly optomized for low penetration cutting. A flat grind is the inbetween grind falling between hollow and convex, generally in most areas of performance and durability.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Also, the thick stock combined with a large grind should be pretty resistant to binding in smallish targets.</font>

If the penetration is low yes, but this really doesn't solve the problem but just transfers it to another area. Now it will be outperformed in regards to penetration.

Bugger in regards to different grinds, as his price are certainly reasonable. I think I'll see if anything turns up in the for sale forum and see if anything turns up. Maybe he is doing something geometry wise to give vastly different performance than I would expect.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 06-06-2001).]
 
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