We always talk about traditional knives, and a lot of the time, the conversation turns to slipjoints. Well, Jackknife seems like the de'facto representative of what's traditional around here and not. Many of his posts talk about small slippies, and of how in the old days, the knives most seen in the pockets of the old timers (not the knife) were small pen knife, or pen knife style knives. Pen knives, peanuts, small stockman, it seems these old guys did just about everything with one. Well, I myself have taken a page out of Jackknife's book and been using a SAK classic as my primary cutter. Whether I am carrying a bigger slippie, another SAK, a multitool, whatever, I have made an effort to use the classic first, and I have to say, it handles just about everything I encounter on a daily basis!! It's to the point where I just carry the Classic. I take it off my keychain and just keep it in my pocket. Like it's predecessor, this little guy cuts things WAY above it's size. So, while we have awesome patterns like the Peanut (have one myself), these are older, more...... classic patterns (no pun intended). So, what do you guys think? Is the SAK Classic the modern day pen knife? Has it taken the place of those tiny little "do it all" knives our grandfathers used to carry?
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Modern pen knife?
- Thread starter Voltron
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The SAK Classic is no doubt a great little knife/tool...I hung one on my wife's keychain. But that said, it doesn't satisfy my own personal conception of the current day pen knife. It's just a bit too utilitarian and devoid of "soul". (Of course that doesn't in any way detract from its worthiness as a tool.)
This would come closer in my mind (as one example) at just a bit over 3 1/4":
And judging by the responses I get when I ask the old timers around here to show me what's in their pocket, I invariably see a Schrade or Case and nary a Victorinox or Wenger. (Would be different among the younger crowd no doubt.)
This would come closer in my mind (as one example) at just a bit over 3 1/4":
And judging by the responses I get when I ask the old timers around here to show me what's in their pocket, I invariably see a Schrade or Case and nary a Victorinox or Wenger. (Would be different among the younger crowd no doubt.)
I think in essence, both of you may be right, but for different reasons.
Those old guys I knew growing up in another era, were products of thier own environment. They used what was available in thier time. The pen knife of old was carried by a heck of a lot of people who were not knife knuts like us. When you get right down to it, I wonder how many of X production knives a year go to repeat buyers who already have several knives? But there is always a segment of people who bought a small pen knife, (now and in the old days) who on some level realized a sharp cutting tool is a nice thing to have sometimes, and once in a while can even be a dire needed tool. But they were not into knives, so they wanted one that was no bother untill needed. One that they could drop in a pocket and forget about untill needed.
Back then, those non knife nuts bought a small pen knife, or even one of those tiny keychain knives. Usually a very small two blade jack with celuloid or bone handles. And for most light duty cutting, they did just fine. They were even given away by feed companies and auto parts stores. They had thin carbon steel blades that actually got very sharp and cut well.
That was then, this is now. Fast forward the way back machine from 1949 to 2009, and you have a whole different person buying. There's still the city office worker or suburbanite commuter that recognizes a need for a small sharp cutting tool that he can forget about till needed. But now we have a buyer who didn't grow up in an era where stainless steel was a bad thing, and plastic reserved only for cheap toys. My father was a very good example of the past generation. He had a dim opinion of stainless steel from the stuff that was made for table wear in the 1930's, and the stuff from the 40's. In his day, even low cost knives had bone handles of sawn bone and natural finish. Plastic was not in the game then.
My generation grew up with some of the first nice stainless coming down the pike. High impact plastics became the norm for durability. When I came home with my first sak, dad looked at it, and made a hurmph noise, and pronounced that it would probably fall apart in a few months. Ten years later that little Victorinox tinker was still going strong, had stood up for a lot of hard use on three contenents. Then there was the Buck revolution. That one company changed a lot of things. A lot of old timers ended up with a stainless steel Buck knife, and liked it.
With modern high speed cutting edge machines, Victorinox makes over 35 million knives a year. Those are 20 different types for world wide distribution. Of those, a bit over 9 million classics are made. Every year. Those production numbers exceed any numbers from Camillus, Schrade, or any other knife company. That's a heck of a lot of knives. In particular, that's a heck of a lot of classics.
Not too long ago, one of the knife magazines had a cover photo of a Vic classic and had it billed as the most confiscated knife at airports. I know just from my own experiance, I see the little red things on keychains all over the place. Granted, I live in a pretty yuppyfied area, the Maryland suburbs of Washington D.C., seat of national insanity. But if you shake down 50 people around here, your gonna find several classics in purses, on keychains.
I think there's still a large segment of non knife knut population that recognizes they need a small sharp cutting tool. They're not like us. They want the same thing as my dad's generation did; a small not too expensive knife that is small enough to forget about till needed. Walk into a store, and the little classic is what you'll find in Target, Walmart, Dick's, and a lot of other stores. The sak became well known in the 60's and 70's. Heck, they even had a TV show with the hero doing the impossable with a sak. The little red knife with the silver cross on it became an icon for a generation. Right up there with Coca Cola and Bic pens.
Now when they, the non knife knut who does not share our fetish for knives, goes looking for a small economicly priced pen knife size thing to put on a keychain, the red handle is recognized immediatly. The sak has become the modern penknife. If a sak classic is not bought, I see a lot of people carring one of those keychain size Leathermans. A juice of something like that name. Tiny knife blade, pliers and some other tools.
I guess there's a lot of evidence to site for the keychain sak being the 'pen knife' of the early 21st century. With Schrade and Camillus gone, as well as most of the other big old time names, there's no real competition for the job.
For those old guys I grew up around, a 'pen knife' is allways going to be a slim two blade pocket knife with carbon steel blades, and looks that any grandfather would recognize. But for the modern 30 something city office guy, the red handles are what's going to be bought. Different generations will recognize different icons. Heck, Macgyver lives!
I once did an experiment with the little classic some years ago. The company that my Karen worked for bought some with their logo on it and handed them out to customers. Of course as hear of customer relations, Karen had one on her kkeychain. Up till then, I thought the classic as some sort of joke. At the time my edc was a large sodbuster.
But as the months passed, and I watched with horror as Karen did what a typical woman and non knife knut did which was abuse the tiny classic by hard use, I expected it to cave. I was wrong. After some months, I put one on my own keyring, and made it a point to use the classic first, before going for my more manly edc. To my great, great, surprise, the little classic did 98% of what I had to do. This of course started my quest to downaize to my fathers finse carry; the peanut. The classic made me understand how dad did what he did.
I think the little classic can be called the pen knife of the modern age.
Even though it would never pass muster by the liers circle.
On the other hand, what would be the 'pen knife' of a Victorian era gentleman in London? Smiling-knife has some exuisite pearl lobster pens of the heyday of Sheffield, with little sissors and nail files, and pipe reamers, and even some knife blades in there among them.
So it all comes down to when and where. Hail Britannia!
Those old guys I knew growing up in another era, were products of thier own environment. They used what was available in thier time. The pen knife of old was carried by a heck of a lot of people who were not knife knuts like us. When you get right down to it, I wonder how many of X production knives a year go to repeat buyers who already have several knives? But there is always a segment of people who bought a small pen knife, (now and in the old days) who on some level realized a sharp cutting tool is a nice thing to have sometimes, and once in a while can even be a dire needed tool. But they were not into knives, so they wanted one that was no bother untill needed. One that they could drop in a pocket and forget about untill needed.
Back then, those non knife nuts bought a small pen knife, or even one of those tiny keychain knives. Usually a very small two blade jack with celuloid or bone handles. And for most light duty cutting, they did just fine. They were even given away by feed companies and auto parts stores. They had thin carbon steel blades that actually got very sharp and cut well.
That was then, this is now. Fast forward the way back machine from 1949 to 2009, and you have a whole different person buying. There's still the city office worker or suburbanite commuter that recognizes a need for a small sharp cutting tool that he can forget about till needed. But now we have a buyer who didn't grow up in an era where stainless steel was a bad thing, and plastic reserved only for cheap toys. My father was a very good example of the past generation. He had a dim opinion of stainless steel from the stuff that was made for table wear in the 1930's, and the stuff from the 40's. In his day, even low cost knives had bone handles of sawn bone and natural finish. Plastic was not in the game then.
My generation grew up with some of the first nice stainless coming down the pike. High impact plastics became the norm for durability. When I came home with my first sak, dad looked at it, and made a hurmph noise, and pronounced that it would probably fall apart in a few months. Ten years later that little Victorinox tinker was still going strong, had stood up for a lot of hard use on three contenents. Then there was the Buck revolution. That one company changed a lot of things. A lot of old timers ended up with a stainless steel Buck knife, and liked it.
With modern high speed cutting edge machines, Victorinox makes over 35 million knives a year. Those are 20 different types for world wide distribution. Of those, a bit over 9 million classics are made. Every year. Those production numbers exceed any numbers from Camillus, Schrade, or any other knife company. That's a heck of a lot of knives. In particular, that's a heck of a lot of classics.
Not too long ago, one of the knife magazines had a cover photo of a Vic classic and had it billed as the most confiscated knife at airports. I know just from my own experiance, I see the little red things on keychains all over the place. Granted, I live in a pretty yuppyfied area, the Maryland suburbs of Washington D.C., seat of national insanity. But if you shake down 50 people around here, your gonna find several classics in purses, on keychains.
I think there's still a large segment of non knife knut population that recognizes they need a small sharp cutting tool. They're not like us. They want the same thing as my dad's generation did; a small not too expensive knife that is small enough to forget about till needed. Walk into a store, and the little classic is what you'll find in Target, Walmart, Dick's, and a lot of other stores. The sak became well known in the 60's and 70's. Heck, they even had a TV show with the hero doing the impossable with a sak. The little red knife with the silver cross on it became an icon for a generation. Right up there with Coca Cola and Bic pens.
Now when they, the non knife knut who does not share our fetish for knives, goes looking for a small economicly priced pen knife size thing to put on a keychain, the red handle is recognized immediatly. The sak has become the modern penknife. If a sak classic is not bought, I see a lot of people carring one of those keychain size Leathermans. A juice of something like that name. Tiny knife blade, pliers and some other tools.
I guess there's a lot of evidence to site for the keychain sak being the 'pen knife' of the early 21st century. With Schrade and Camillus gone, as well as most of the other big old time names, there's no real competition for the job.
For those old guys I grew up around, a 'pen knife' is allways going to be a slim two blade pocket knife with carbon steel blades, and looks that any grandfather would recognize. But for the modern 30 something city office guy, the red handles are what's going to be bought. Different generations will recognize different icons. Heck, Macgyver lives!
I once did an experiment with the little classic some years ago. The company that my Karen worked for bought some with their logo on it and handed them out to customers. Of course as hear of customer relations, Karen had one on her kkeychain. Up till then, I thought the classic as some sort of joke. At the time my edc was a large sodbuster.
But as the months passed, and I watched with horror as Karen did what a typical woman and non knife knut did which was abuse the tiny classic by hard use, I expected it to cave. I was wrong. After some months, I put one on my own keyring, and made it a point to use the classic first, before going for my more manly edc. To my great, great, surprise, the little classic did 98% of what I had to do. This of course started my quest to downaize to my fathers finse carry; the peanut. The classic made me understand how dad did what he did.
I think the little classic can be called the pen knife of the modern age.
Even though it would never pass muster by the liers circle.
On the other hand, what would be the 'pen knife' of a Victorian era gentleman in London? Smiling-knife has some exuisite pearl lobster pens of the heyday of Sheffield, with little sissors and nail files, and pipe reamers, and even some knife blades in there among them.
So it all comes down to when and where. Hail Britannia!
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Of course I am a little one tracked, oh I have a siding or two, but here is what "Pen Knife" means to me. One who grew up in mid-west, raised by WW2 men who had me help castrate calves, cut trotline cord, skin a squirrel, scrape a gasket from a 189 Ford staight six, open letter that said Greetings, your draft number is ...... Carried one to school every single day from grade 5 and up.
Buck 305 was more a Sunday or go to Grandma's knife. The 309 was a everyday jeans watch pocket knife.
I have and use SAKs, specialized use, but to me a modern, new age pen knife is the plastic scale 425 single blade. When I got my first new-off-the-lot truck I put one of those four pointed screwdrive plates and a 425 on the key ring. As I grew more responsible and became a multi-key middle age adult I took off the knife but kept the screwdriver.
300Bucks
Buck 305 was more a Sunday or go to Grandma's knife. The 309 was a everyday jeans watch pocket knife.
I have and use SAKs, specialized use, but to me a modern, new age pen knife is the plastic scale 425 single blade. When I got my first new-off-the-lot truck I put one of those four pointed screwdrive plates and a 425 on the key ring. As I grew more responsible and became a multi-key middle age adult I took off the knife but kept the screwdriver.
300Bucks
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i couldn't do it. most restaurants don't have table knives here and even high end western places give you incredibly dull knives. I need somethng with a long enough blade to cut food (2.5-3inches) a pen knife or a classic won't make the cut for me.
The problem of making any kind of call on this is; we have to step outside ourselves, because we're so very very biased. This is a forum for traditional knives, it's what we love. We're the folksy bunch, remember?
Outside of us, the fact is that most people don't even carry a knife at all these days. If we do the pie slice thing, I'd be willing to bet 1/2 of the pie is non knife people. Outside of my imediate family and small circle of friends, most people I know don't edc any knife. I know most of my nieghbors don't. Heck, most of my life. most people I know thought I was kind of nuts for being a knife knut.
After you take away from the pie the non knife people, the biggest chunk of knife carrying people are the tactical crowd. The pocket clip cowboys. A son of a good friend of mine just got back not too long ago from his tour in the great sandbox. If Chris and his friends are anything to go by, if it don't open with a flick of the thumb, they ain't interested. Spyderco's Benchmades, and all the rest. Our niece in the Navy did her tour as an electrician's mate, and the Navy gave her and her people Leathermans. If there were any other knives, they were the tactical ones. All of the young guys who turn up at the gun club for their manditory work details all have the pocket clips. There goes one more slice of the pie.
Next slice of the pie goes to us. The afflicted. The obsessed. knife knuts. We buy way more knives than we need, and our tastes vary with our whims. I don't think we are a very big part of the pie. I'd like to see the production figures for GEC, Shatt and Morgan, and the rest of the nitch market.
What part of the pie is left over is the people who don't think of a knife much different than a screwdriver of a letter opener. To them it may be something they have figured out they need, but they don't really want to be bothered carrying one. Or much of one. I think this crowd may buy more than we think. They buy by both price point and convienence. What the store has in stock and whats not too much money. And will fit in with being politically correct. I know some of these people, and that counts. Millions of backpackers, day hikers, campground hot dog roasting 30 something minivan driving young Americans. They travel by rail and bus thru Europe, go to burning man festivals (whatever that may be) and hang out with friends in odd places. They carry a sak because the travel books recomend a sak. Or they are also backpackers, and the sak is sort of a backpackers badge of something. Lord knows that the sak is the recomended knife in most backpacking books and stores.
Most knife sales these days seem to be either tactical or mulltitool. Traditional old fashoned pocket knives with soul don't seem to cut it with most people these days, because most people don't really care. All they want is a tool. We're living in an age of mediocrity. People don't care about nice jigged bone handles, and carbon steel that holds an edge better. They want shiney and carefree, and just get the job done. Look at all the people who don't even have a sharp knife in their kitchen. They certainly won't bother having much of a knife in their pocket, if they bother to have one at all.
I do know that I've run into some people who I would NEVER have thought would have had a knife on them, as they were way over on the left side of the fence, but there was the little red sak on thier keychain.
I don't know. The only way to really know would be to just check the production numbers to see who's selling the most of what.
Outside of us, the fact is that most people don't even carry a knife at all these days. If we do the pie slice thing, I'd be willing to bet 1/2 of the pie is non knife people. Outside of my imediate family and small circle of friends, most people I know don't edc any knife. I know most of my nieghbors don't. Heck, most of my life. most people I know thought I was kind of nuts for being a knife knut.
After you take away from the pie the non knife people, the biggest chunk of knife carrying people are the tactical crowd. The pocket clip cowboys. A son of a good friend of mine just got back not too long ago from his tour in the great sandbox. If Chris and his friends are anything to go by, if it don't open with a flick of the thumb, they ain't interested. Spyderco's Benchmades, and all the rest. Our niece in the Navy did her tour as an electrician's mate, and the Navy gave her and her people Leathermans. If there were any other knives, they were the tactical ones. All of the young guys who turn up at the gun club for their manditory work details all have the pocket clips. There goes one more slice of the pie.
Next slice of the pie goes to us. The afflicted. The obsessed. knife knuts. We buy way more knives than we need, and our tastes vary with our whims. I don't think we are a very big part of the pie. I'd like to see the production figures for GEC, Shatt and Morgan, and the rest of the nitch market.
What part of the pie is left over is the people who don't think of a knife much different than a screwdriver of a letter opener. To them it may be something they have figured out they need, but they don't really want to be bothered carrying one. Or much of one. I think this crowd may buy more than we think. They buy by both price point and convienence. What the store has in stock and whats not too much money. And will fit in with being politically correct. I know some of these people, and that counts. Millions of backpackers, day hikers, campground hot dog roasting 30 something minivan driving young Americans. They travel by rail and bus thru Europe, go to burning man festivals (whatever that may be) and hang out with friends in odd places. They carry a sak because the travel books recomend a sak. Or they are also backpackers, and the sak is sort of a backpackers badge of something. Lord knows that the sak is the recomended knife in most backpacking books and stores.
Most knife sales these days seem to be either tactical or mulltitool. Traditional old fashoned pocket knives with soul don't seem to cut it with most people these days, because most people don't really care. All they want is a tool. We're living in an age of mediocrity. People don't care about nice jigged bone handles, and carbon steel that holds an edge better. They want shiney and carefree, and just get the job done. Look at all the people who don't even have a sharp knife in their kitchen. They certainly won't bother having much of a knife in their pocket, if they bother to have one at all.
I do know that I've run into some people who I would NEVER have thought would have had a knife on them, as they were way over on the left side of the fence, but there was the little red sak on thier keychain.
I don't know. The only way to really know would be to just check the production numbers to see who's selling the most of what.
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The only thing I can contribute to this discussion is the fact that no matter what knife or combination of knives I happen to be carrying, I'll always have a little red plastic guy hanging off of my keychain. 
The thing is that, unlike my other knives, I look at them as just useful tools; the difference being that I consider them to be disposable and lacking of any "soul" - I pretty much keep one until it really starts to fall apart and then replace it with another 
(I'm on my third Rambler and, before those, I carried Classics).
The thing is that, unlike my other knives, I look at them as just useful tools; the difference being that I consider them to be disposable and lacking of any "soul" - I pretty much keep one until it really starts to fall apart and then replace it with another (I'm on my third Rambler and, before those, I carried Classics).Lots of folk at mentioning a very important point about the Classic
You are not carrying a seperate knife in your pocket.
It goes on your key chain and that it has an easy of carry because it is on your key chain always to be found.
And it is no bigger than a key.
You are not carrying a seperate knife in your pocket.
It goes on your key chain and that it has an easy of carry because it is on your key chain always to be found.
And it is no bigger than a key.
Thank you neeman, that's kind of the point I was trying to make in my sometimes too long winded way.
When I was a kid, a pen knife was one of those little two blade keychain handle knives you saw on the cardboard display by the register up front. They all had either cracked ice celluloid or white plastic fake pearl handles, and had a chrome bead chain on the bail for attaching to a keychain. These were the pen knife of the non knife carrying masses. I think they sold for something like a quarter. Later on in the 60's, they were replaced by the all steel little things made by the nail clipper companys like Trim, that had a single sheepsfoot blade, and a combo tool that was a screwdriver and bottle opener. Again for the non knife carrying masses. You didn't have to worry about forgeting your knife; it was attached to your keys and you couldn't leave home without it.
The keychain penknife; you can't leave home without it!
When I was a kid, a pen knife was one of those little two blade keychain handle knives you saw on the cardboard display by the register up front. They all had either cracked ice celluloid or white plastic fake pearl handles, and had a chrome bead chain on the bail for attaching to a keychain. These were the pen knife of the non knife carrying masses. I think they sold for something like a quarter. Later on in the 60's, they were replaced by the all steel little things made by the nail clipper companys like Trim, that had a single sheepsfoot blade, and a combo tool that was a screwdriver and bottle opener. Again for the non knife carrying masses. You didn't have to worry about forgeting your knife; it was attached to your keys and you couldn't leave home without it.
The keychain penknife; you can't leave home without it!
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Thank you neeman, that's kind of the point I was trying to make in my sometimes too long winded way.
When I was a kid, a pen knife was one of those little two blade keychain handle knives you saw on the cardboard display by the register up front. They all had either cracked ice celluloid or white plastic fake pearl handles, and had a chrome bead chain on the bail for attaching to a keychain. These were the pen knife of the non knife carrying masses. I think they sold for something like a quarter. Later on in the 60's, they were replaced by the all steel little things made by the nail clipper companys like Trim, that had a single sheepsfoot blade, and a combo tool that was a screwdriver and bottle opener. Again for the non knife carrying masses. You didn't have to worry about forgeting your knife; it was attached to your keys and you couldn't leave home without it.
The keychain penknife; you can't leave home without it!
This is what I was thinking of when I posted this. The knife Blues showed is called a "pen" knife, but I've seen all sorts of "pen" knives out there. I was thinking about those little knives that Jackknife was talking about. The ones on everyone's keychains. We knife knuts are a separate breed. We carry differently then the "layman". LOL. We are specialists of sorts. But for the modern day Joe Public, I think it's all about the Classic right now.
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I'll always have a little red plastic guy hanging off of my keychain.
This is the situation for me to. I could do with only my keyringknife that is always a 58mm SAK but I want to carry a knife that makes me feel good of owning and carrying it.
I would call them small knifes though. A pen knife is a different thing. It has 2 blades and a slim body. In sweden also often a corkskrew as the old beerbottles had to be opened with one.
No worries for you Jackknife to write to long and windling stories, we will tell you when that happens....if it happens.
Im realy with you in your thoughts about backpackers campers etc. I think that a Classic on the keyshain is sort of a thing that gives identity for non knife interested people. Shows within the masses in a way they can take care of them selves.
What a nice thread benith that title.
Bosse
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Just to add that little penknives were often attached to gentlemen's watch chains and ladies' chatelaine chains in days of yor before key chains.
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I love and collect Case Eisenhowers. Unfortunately, not one has ever been made with carbon steel to my knowledge so I never carry them. I would if I could get one in carbon steel or a high tech stainless. Pen knives are almost the perfect carry utility knife.
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A carbon steel Eisenhower is a thought to hold on to. They'd sell thousands of 'em.
David
Ike was giving these things out when he was in office. They were using stainless even then at Case?
Wow, I didn't know that.
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Think so? Maybe I should call Case and see if they would make a small production run for me. Times are tough. They might.
Fred
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Yes. I have one of the originals like Ike gave away from the 1950's before they started putting the signature etch on them. Stainless blades, brown jigged bone scales. If they don't have the signature etch, I consider them equal end pens and not Eisenhowers even though Case doesn't make that distinction. They may have made equal end pens with carbon blades before Eisenhower's time but I wouldn't count those personally. That's just me. If I encounter one, I'll buy it and carry it.
That's a thought. If the peanuts, mini-trappers and tiny toothpicks are hot sellers, maybe a CV Eisenhour would sell well. There's always been talk on the forums abount wishing there was more CV offerings at Case.
Worth a try anyway.