Modifications & Busse Warranty

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Oct 31, 2003
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I have read where Jerry states that knives that have been modded outside the shop void the warranty as they do not know if too much heat was used from tools like belt sanders, etc... I understand that.

But does anyone know if the warranty is null and void if the mods are done by hand with a metal file? It is very slow thus less heat. Right?

Thanks.
 
Good luck with the metal file. You will probably be filing for a few months or years :p The files are 62rc and are harder than INFI at 59-60rc. However, you will be going through lots of files because all of the teeth would be ruined quick style. You are much better off with very coarse sandpaper or extra coarse diamond hones.

I don't think it is just the heat treat that they worry about as INFI is tempered at very high temps at 900+ degrees. There is really no way for them to guarantee anything that is done by someone else because there are just too much unknown variables. It would be a warranty nightmare for them to try and sort these things out. Most basic carbon steels and high carbon stainless are tempered at around 400-500 degrees. When grinding with reasonable amount of care it is pretty hard to reach that high of a temperature. I don't think most people can hold onto something that is 400 degrees without discomfort.
 
Good points Ban. And when I say mods with a file I am talking about very small ones. I was thinking along the lines of enlarging a choil. Nothing big. :)
 
Good points Ban. And when I say mods with a file I am talking about very small ones. I was thinking along the lines of enlarging a choil. Nothing big. :)

Just buy one of those 1/2" or 3/4" drum attachments. Chuck it onto a drill press or hand drill and go to town. I highly doubt that something like that would ruin the temper of INFI. You would have to try really really really hard to get it hot enough.
 
I don't think it is just the heat treat that they worry about as INFI is tempered at very high temps at 900+ degrees. There is really no way for them to guarantee anything that is done by someone else because there are just too much unknown variables. It would be a warranty nightmare for them to try and sort these things out. Most basic carbon steels and high carbon stainless are tempered at around 400-500 degrees. When grinding with reasonable amount of care it is pretty hard to reach that high of a temperature. I don't think most people can hold onto something that is 400 degrees without discomfort.


and here is where we disagree.

When grinding on any metal, heat transfer to your hand is not immediate and is not direct. The thickness of the blade and it's size asre all variables in heat dispersion within the metal. The thinner the metal the higher the heat will be. In other words, when you are grinding on a piece of steel, just because you cannot feel the high heat at your hands doesn't mean that the little section you were grinding on didn't just flash to over 400 degrees.

metal is a good conductor of heat, but not a great one, that is why there are better ways to conduct heat out of areas where convection is not possible and radiation is useless.

how hot does your hand feel before you stop grinding. I did a little experiment with a cheap blade and sanded it's edge on the belt sander and within 2 minutes of several passes on each side of the blade the knife was very hot to the touch. If I stop to cool it off and start again, I will be there all day. So do I go a little further until it is too hot to touch, like maybe 200 degrees and then stop giving me several extra minutes. However, this two inch wide blade is that hot at the spine can you even guess how hot it must be at it's very thin edge. I can tell you that twice that hot might just be conservative. this is why Busse cannot warranty it once it has been severly modified, because there is a good chance you have just added another temper cycle and reduced it's hardness by a couple of points.

The intro of stress risers might be another reason in some cases.

Now if you can grind that edge under cold water then you are fine. :D
 
here's where i disagree with both of you.

it doesn't take 400 degrees or even 200 degrees to make a lighter dog taste good.




sh1lighterdog.jpg
 
a dremel will send the temp high enough to blacken the metal on thin sections within seconds. but dremels go very fast, and concentrate the friction on a very small area of space...
 
and here is where we disagree.

When grinding on any metal, heat transfer to your hand is not immediate and is not direct. The thickness of the blade and it's size asre all variables in heat dispersion within the metal. The thinner the metal the higher the heat will be. In other words, when you are grinding on a piece of steel, just because you cannot feel the high heat at your hands doesn't mean that the little section you were grinding on didn't just flash to over 400 degrees.

Agreed! As noted in my past post... this is the reason why at least one digit is kept in direct contact of the thinnest area being ground at all times.

metal is a good conductor of heat, but not a great one, that is why there are better ways to conduct heat out of areas where convection is not possible and radiation is useless.

Metal is a good conductor of heat. That in conjunction with frequent cold water dipping will do a good job of keeping things cool. It only takes a few seconds for water to disperse most of the heat.

how hot does your hand feel before you stop grinding. I did a little experiment with a cheap blade and sanded it's edge on the belt sander and within 2 minutes of several passes on each side of the blade the knife was very hot to the touch. If I stop to cool it off and start again, I will be there all day. So do I go a little further until it is too hot to touch, like maybe 200 degrees and then stop giving me several extra minutes. However, this two inch wide blade is that hot at the spine can you even guess how hot it must be at it's very thin edge. I can tell you that twice that hot might just be conservative. this is why Busse cannot warranty it once it has been severly modified, because there is a good chance you have just added another temper cycle and reduced it's hardness by a couple of points.


Of course it would take forever if your hot blade was left to air cool. Cool water would have taken only seconds to pull out most of the heat. The hottest area of the blade is the portion being ground because that is where most friction is generated. If you focus your grinding on a area near the spine or middle of the blade that would be the area that is the hottest and not the edge. 2 minutes is an awfully long long long time to grind on a heat treated blade without cooling. I cool the blade after every single pass and at max 2 passes. Each pass takes approximately 3-10 seconds depending on the length of blade and area being worked on. I stop grinding and dip in cool water as soon as the passes are done or when I feel the thinnest area being ground gets warm to touch. Whichever comes first.

The intro of stress risers might be another reason in some cases.

Now if you can grind that edge under cold water then you are fine. :D


LVC,

As you already noted a dremel is going at a super high speed and focused on a small thin surface area. The drum attached to a drill would not get nearly anywhere as fast and is a larger surface area. As I said, it is highly unlikely and not impossible to get it hot. I suppose if you sat there and really really tried to get it hot with a drill attached drum then it might be possible. A reasonable about of care can easily fix that heat issue.
 
I think that with someone who is knowledgeable about their grind work, busse might make a case by case exception. Either way an Rc tester will tell the truth, but I guess we would have to know the Rc beforehand. Would it not be cool if every knife came with an Rc number.
 
I think that with someone who is knowledgeable about their grind work, busse might make a case by case exception. Either way an Rc tester will tell the truth, but I guess we would have to know the Rc beforehand. Would it not be cool if every knife came with an Rc number.

If the knives came with a RC number then everyone would want to pick the hardest one. That way they can say "Mine is Harder than Yours!" :D
 
If the knives came with a RC number then everyone would want to pick the hardest one. That way they can say "Mine is Harder than Yours!" :D

What difference would it make? Most don't seem to use 'em for much other than "in home" fondling anyway.

(not that there is anything wrong with that)
 
What difference would it make? Most don't seem to use 'em for much other than "in home" fondling anyway.

(not that there is anything wrong with that)


Very true! But every once in a while we need to let the dogs out to play ;) WOOF!
 
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