Mora, & "Scandinavian" grind

jpvjr · Feb 29, 2008

I was asked to sharpen a Mora, & was told it has a "Scandinavian" grind

. Now this is an old knife (~15 yrs) & was NEVER sharpened. Looking at it it appears to only have 1 bevel @ 10-15 degrees (20-30 compound). Do I keep it with only that bevel, or is it just so old the second bevel is gone?
FWIW: I don't think it would be a good cutter, it's small & thin, but looks kind of fragile, but I could be wrong:foot:.

Rupestris · Feb 29, 2008

jpvjr said:
Looking at it it appears to only have 1 bevel @ 10-15 degrees (20-30 compound). Do I keep it with only that bevel...

Yep. Thats what a "Scandinavian" (or "Scandi") grind is. No secondary bevel.

Dog of War · Feb 29, 2008

jpvjr said:
I was asked to sharpen a Mora, & was told it has a "Scandinavian" grind. Now this is an old knife (~15 yrs) & was NEVER sharpened. Looking at it it appears to only have 1 bevel @ 10-15 degrees (20-30 compound). Do I keep it with only that bevel, or is it just so old the second bevel is gone?
FWIW: I don't think it would be a good cutter, it's small & thin, but looks kind of fragile, but I could be wrong:foot:.

Like Rupestris said, the Scandinavian grind features just that one, large bevel. The claimed advantage is that you just lay the bevel flat to the stone to sharpen, which requires no particular skill to keep the edge at that angle. The disadvantage is that you're having to remove a lot more metal sharpening the whole bevel every time. IMO a good compromise is to use a Sharpmaker or Crock Sticks to add a small microbevel, which you can do for touch-ups for a while, saving a lot of work.

And don't underestimate that knife, even though the traditional way the stick tang is attached to the handle looks like it might be fragile, these knives can do a lot of serious work. Also the Swedes seem to really know what they're doing when heat treating a blade, most should take and hold a very good edge.

StretchNM · Feb 29, 2008

If it were mine, I would not add a micro-bevel... and here's why:

When we sharpen a standard v-grind, except for very quick touch-ups, we sharpen the secondary bevel and then sometimes finish off with a micro-bevel. This keeps the secondary bevel consistent, and keeps the micro-bevel (if it were the only thing sharpened) from eventually becoming itself a secondary bevel.

I'm thinking if you begin sharpening a micro-bevel on a Scandinavian grind, you will take what is already alot of metal to sharpen (the secondary or Scandi grind bevel) and increase it. Why? Because you sharpen the micro-bevel again and again and it becomes the NEW (but steeper angled) Scandi bevel. See? You end up with the same problem. So....maybe by this time we decide, "well I'll just put a new micro-bevel on that NEW scandi bevel", and the process starts anew.....and the edge gets steeper and steeper with each "new" grind. Is this making sense? (I may not be the best at explaining it)

Nay, I say! (((

))) Spend the small amount of time it takes to sharpen the Scandi grind as it was meant to be sharpened: flat to the stone on the original grind. If it's dull, maybe you'll need a diamond stone so it doesn;t take so long. BUT, once it's ground sharp, it will be like any other knife - it will just need to be touched up before it gets overly dull.

Also, as Dog of War said, these Mora-type blades, albeit thin, are more stout than they appear to be. I started by Mora-buying-spree just a month or three ago, but I'm convinced now they're unbeatable for the price.

Dog of War · Mar 1, 2008

StretchNM said:
If it were mine, I would not add a micro-bevel... and here's why:

When we sharpen a standard v-grind, except for very quick touch-ups, we sharpen the secondary bevel and then sometimes finish off with a micro-bevel. This keeps the secondary bevel consistent, and keeps the micro-bevel (if it were the only thing sharpened) from eventually becoming itself a secondary bevel.

I'm thinking if you begin sharpening a micro-bevel on a Scandinavian grind, you will take what is already alot of metal to sharpen (the secondary or Scandi grind bevel) and increase it. Why? Because you sharpen the micro-bevel again and again and it becomes the NEW (but steeper angled) Scandi bevel. See? You end up with the same problem ....

Hi, Stretch. I think we're actually more in agreement here than it sounds. By microbevel, I mean "micro" quite literally, and as you rightly point out, if you let it become something more than micro, you're kind of defeating the purpose, eventually losing benefit of the more acute geometry of the large Scandi bevel.

An advantage of the microbevel I didn't mention is that many times that slightly more obtuse edge "apex" results in a significant improvement in edge holding; on my non-laminated carbon steel Moras I've found that a 20 deg./side microbevel -- which is only like 5 extremely light strokes per side on a Sharpmaker or CrockSticks -- makes a pretty noticeable difference in edge retention. With the laminated and Sandvik stainless Moras, a 15-17 deg/side microbevel is as steep as I usually go.

But whatever method you settle on, these Scandi knives are incredible tools for the price and a lot of fun to use and experiment with.

bdws1975 · Mar 1, 2008

I have sharpened my scandi grinds using the original angle bevel and it's not any more difficult than any other sharpening.

Spend the time and keep the original angle in tact. Scandi's are amazing cutters and the edge geometry is why.

just MHO

brett

StretchNM · Mar 1, 2008

I'm having a very hard time with my Mora 510, which came with a razor edge from belly to tip, but from belly to hilt it left a little to be desired. I don;t hink it's so much the width of the scandi grind that's giving me problems, though it could be, it's just a very hard carbon steel. I think I need a diamond hone, I've been using SM ceramic triangles. That steel is tough!

tarmix101 · Mar 1, 2008

StretchNM said:
I'm having a very hard time with my Mora 510, which came with a razor edge from belly to tip, but from belly to hilt it left a little to be desired. I don;t hink it's so much the width of the scandi grind that's giving me problems, though it could be, it's just a very hard carbon steel. I think I need a diamond hone, I've been using SM ceramic triangles. That steel is tough!

I have used the Mora 510 for a long time. Its steel is compared to 1095 or 1084. Tough steel......I would say yes, hard.......I have sharpened much harder steel before. It's RC is around 58-59. I have never used anything other than 800 grit water stone to re bevel, and 4000 to polish.

I then use a mouse pad, and some 1200 grit sandpaper to put a convexed micro bevel on it, and strop it with charged leather. Most often I just use my belt in the field to bring it back to shaving sharp.

One thing that makes scandi grinds easier IMO is a large stone. Either water, or oil. Takes more metal per pass than crock sticks, or the sharpmaker.

Dog of War · Mar 1, 2008

StretchNM said:
I'm having a very hard time with my Mora 510, which came with a razor edge from belly to tip, but from belly to hilt it left a little to be desired. I don;t hink it's so much the width of the scandi grind that's giving me problems, though it could be, it's just a very hard carbon steel. I think I need a diamond hone, I've been using SM ceramic triangles. That steel is tough!

Yeah, you probably just need something more aggressive, even the medium grit Spyderco is about 800 grit. I generally use a medium India benchstone, around 240 grit, which works pretty well, but diamond should make short work of it.

Broos · Mar 1, 2008

Either way works great, just remember the longer you keep it sharp using a microbevel, the longer it will take to sharpen it back to a "zero" edge. If I'm at the house, I'll put the zero edge back, but if I'm out in the woods I will resharpen it using a microbevel. And don't forget to try a Norwegian and Finnish scandi, too!

Dr. Mudd · Mar 1, 2008

Ragnar at www.ragweedforge.com is the authority on Scandinavian knives. Take a look at http://ragweedforge.com/scanshrp.html and he tells you exactly how to sharpen one and why.

Troop · Mar 1, 2008

I just sharpened my Mora 510 last night, using diamond stones, then a black Arkansas. If you're not used to sharpening Scandi's, it can be a little tricky (feels "different" on the stone, especially the belly), if only because you're not used to doing it.
- Just my experience.

StretchNM · Mar 1, 2008

What grit diamond stones did you use? I'm in the market now. I think I'll start with a DMT xx-coarse.

Also regarding micro-bevels: I agree they have their place on a Scandi - a quick touch-up with a micro-bevel in the field or even at home, but not as a standard when dealing with a very dull knife like JPVJR is describing.

Troop · Mar 1, 2008

StretchNM said:
What grit diamond stones did you use? I'm in the market now. I think I'll start with a DMT xx-coarse.

Also regarding micro-bevels: I agree they have their place on a Scandi - a quick touch-up with a micro-bevel in the field or even at home, but not as a standard when dealing with a very dull knife like JPVJR is describing.

Stretch, I used DMT stones; first blue (coarse), then red (fine). Finished up with a black Arkansas, then stropped on some coarse colored paper I found at work.:thumbup:

EdgePal · Mar 1, 2008

About the Scandi grind and secondary bevel.

The principle is that a knife only used for woodwork does not have a secondary bevel. It needs to be very sharp and it needs to hold a low sharpening angle, about 10 degrees.

If you use your knifes for other things (and wood sometimes), you shall use a secondary bevel.

The secondary bevels angle is depending on how just you are using your knife and to what.

The secondary bevel shall be between 1-3 degrees above primarily bevel. It shall be about 2-3 tens of an mm wide = when you can se this bevel with your eye, stop grinding!
When you use the knife it will be dull. When you sharpen your knife, you sharpen only the secondary bevel. This make the secondary bevel be wider and wider. When it have grow to about 6 tens of a mm the knife feels dull what ever you do with it then you must grind the primarily bevel so that the secondary bevel is back to 2-3 tens of a mm, then the edge is sharp again.

If you like to have a secondary bevel on your knife, start with 2 degrees angle above the primarily bevel. If this feels nice for you and the edge is holding about 10 times longer compare to no secondary bevel, keep it. If you need a little sharper edge, go down to 1 or 1,5 degree, or, if you like to have an edge who holds very long time, go up to 2,5 or 3 degrees secondary bevel.

You balance the angle in the secondary bevel after your way of using the knife it is a personal thing.

To sharpen Scandi grind:
Sharpen the secondary bevel before its gets dull.
If you wait until the edge is real dull, you must take away a lot of material from the blade to get it sharp again. If you sharpen it before its gets dull you only take away 1/1000 parts of a mm every time. Compare this with sharpen away up to a half mm when the edge is real dull

This is what we call maintaining sharpening. You just let the sharpener slide along the edge 3-4 times without pressure, that is all and your knife never gets dull. The maintaining sharpening is made in about 10 15 seconds.

So, also the secondary bevel is a very old Scandi traditional type of edge.

Thomas

jpvjr · Mar 3, 2008

EdgePal said:
About the Scandi grind and secondary bevel.

The principle is that a knife only used for woodwork does not have a secondary bevel. It needs to be very sharp and it needs to hold a low sharpening angle, about 10 degrees.

If you use your knifes for other things (and wood sometimes), you shall use a secondary bevel.

The secondary bevels angle is depending on how just you are using your knife and to what.

The secondary bevel shall be between 1-3 degrees above primarily bevel. It shall be about 2-3 tens of an mm wide = when you can se this bevel with your eye, stop grinding!
When you use the knife it will be dull. When you sharpen your knife, you sharpen only the secondary bevel. This make the secondary bevel be wider and wider. When it have grow to about 6 tens of a mm the knife feels dull what ever you do with it then you must grind the primarily bevel so that the secondary bevel is back to 2-3 tens of a mm, then the edge is sharp again.

If you like to have a secondary bevel on your knife, start with 2 degrees angle above the primarily bevel. If this feels nice for you and the edge is holding about 10 times longer compare to no secondary bevel, keep it. If you need a little sharper edge, go down to 1 or 1,5 degree, or, if you like to have an edge who holds very long time, go up to 2,5 or 3 degrees secondary bevel.

You balance the angle in the secondary bevel after your way of using the knife it is a personal thing.

To sharpen Scandi grind:
Sharpen the secondary bevel before its gets dull.
If you wait until the edge is real dull, you must take away a lot of material from the blade to get it sharp again. If you sharpen it before its gets dull you only take away 1/1000 parts of a mm every time. Compare this with sharpen away up to a half mm when the edge is real dull

This is what we call maintaining sharpening. You just let the sharpener slide along the edge 3-4 times without pressure, that is all and your knife never gets dull. The maintaining sharpening is made in about 10 15 seconds.

So, also the secondary bevel is a very old Scandi traditional type of edge.

Thomas

Yep, I did it only with the original single bevel. I only own 3 stones (6x2 C,M,F). I worked it up real nice & you were right it does take a nice edge.

sodak · Mar 3, 2008

StretchNM said:
What grit diamond stones did you use? I'm in the market now. I think I'll start with a DMT xx-coarse.

Also regarding micro-bevels: I agree they have their place on a Scandi - a quick touch-up with a micro-bevel in the field or even at home, but not as a standard when dealing with a very dull knife like JPVJR is describing.

I generally start with the blue - coarse. The black, x-coarse, re-profiles quickly, and the xx-coarse even quicker, but leaves pretty big gouges, be careful with it if you use it.