More little guys?

[jackknife]

Help me out here fellas, I'm having a senior memory moment. I can't remember seeing many mini copies of knives when I was a kid. Now we have pocket hunters, mini-trappers, mini-toothpicks, butterbeans that are shrunk canoes.

Sure we had little pocket knives, like the ones with a bail and bead chain on them for a keychain. And if you wanted a small pocket knife, there was the Peanut. But back then almost all the little pocket knives I recall were of the two blade sleveboard or serpentine kind. Not minature copies of regular size knives in production. About when do you all think the mini knives came out? 60's? 70's?

If this is a fairly recent thing, like the last 15 year or so, do you think there was a real perception by Case that there was an increased demand for the the little guys?

And finally, how many of you have in the very recent past switched to a smaller knife?

 

[Bastid]

I think the little patterns have shown up over the last 15 years or so and that one possible influence is the "sign of the times". (Meaning they are being made to fill a niche that has come about from tool-a-phobia.) Most people do not become as upset over seeing a smaller knife being used. Funny how a 3 inch blade will garner the response of "who ya gonna kill with that" while a smaller pattern hardly gets any notice at all.

 

[orca8589]

The smallest knife I remember when I was a kid (mid-1970's) was a little chrome plated multi-blade (three blades?) that my dad had, with the word TRIM stamped on the handle. He was stationed on a submarine in the navy, and apparently at that time, that was what he could carry on base. While on the boat, he carried a TL-29, the two-blade sleeveboard jack type knife with the blade and screwdriver; but on the base, it was only the TRIM, on his keychain. The TL-29 sized knives were the ones I remember the most growing up; I remember those more than I remember Peanuts or any other small ones.

I do remember some of the older folks at our church with what they called "watch chain" knives, but they were Sunday knives only, I think.

thx - cpr

 

[GarageBoy]

TRIM makes nail clippers, IIRC

 

[sunnyd]

I am inclined to believe that part of the influx of the production of these "mini's" is exactly what Gus has stated in his post.

However, I also think that Case came out with miniature patterns of there larger brothers to cater to, or more likely drum up more stock for the collector market to spend they're money on. I say this because I know of folks personally who collect Trappers patterns exclusively, who bought all the new mini-trappers as they came out so they could have bragging rights of said purchases and ultimately to complete the collections they have.

 

[shecky]

Perhaps "sign of the times", but less to do with tool-a-phobia, and more to do with increased competition for pocket space with games, PDAs, phones, etc. Also increased competition in the knife marketplace. There are way more knives on the market today than when I was a kid in the 70s, often at lower prices and higher quality for even the cheapos. This means more variety and more niches for manufacturers to fill. Small, moderately priced pocketknives have always been big sellers among a wider variety of folks than the usual suspects. Even a knife nut like me often finds a tiny knife more practical than a larger one to EDC.

 

[ElCuchillo]

I think the little patterns have shown up over the last 15 years or so and that one possible influence is the "sign of the times". (Meaning they are being made to fill a niche that has come about from tool-a-phobia.) Most people do not become as upset over seeing a smaller knife being used. Funny how a 3 inch blade will garner the response of "who ya gonna kill with that" while a smaller pattern hardly gets any notice at all.

I agree with Gus as well. Nowadays, the paranoia about edged objects is out of control. However, a little pocket knife, a Peanut, Pen knife, or Senator, maybe Vic Classic, ilicits memories of grandpa whittling a stick, not of someone using one as a terrorist weapon. Everyone wins. Smaller version of our favorite patterns. We get to carry them more acceptingly, the knife makers still make some money, and the sheeple don't an eye. As for me, I was turned on to the Peanut here on this forum a few years ago, and have been adicted to it ever since, and have actually used to to do quite alot, as most of you know. I may be a prodigious Peanut user, but I am still pretty much a rookie, and I got my start here. Not only that, but the Peanut I use was given to me by a fellow forumite (fewpop), so I owe it all to you guys.
Thanks, guys.

 

[shecky]

I agree with Gus as well. Nowadays, the paranoia about edged objects is out of control.

I know this is a popular rant among knife nuts on this forum. But I don't think it holds much water, or at the very least, isn't supported by the notion that some kind of paranoia has resulted in the popularity of small knives. While it seems to be true that there are more little patterns now than in the past, I maintain that trend is because of the reasons I stated in my earlier post.

If I were wrong, then paranoia about edged objects would result in only smaller knives increasingly being on the market. However, I don't think this is true. There seems to be far more large knives on the market these days, from a wide variety of manufacturers, in a wide range of prices, than ever before. Thirty or forty years ago, pocketknives that measured about 5"+ closed were a rare sight and often somewhat specialized. These days, they are fairly common. Large traditional patterns have not only thrived, but are far outnumbered by large lockblades, tactical knives, etc. of various types. If paranoia about edged objects were out of control, the market for such large knives would have dwindled, not expanded.

 

[jackknife]

I think the little patterns have shown up over the last 15 years or so and that one possible influence is the "sign of the times". (Meaning they are being made to fill a niche that has come about from tool-a-phobia.) Most people do not become as upset over seeing a smaller knife being used. Funny how a 3 inch blade will garner the response of "who ya gonna kill with that" while a smaller pattern hardly gets any notice at all.

I was leaning towards this way of thought a bit myself. I had the idea that maybe because of where I live, I was getting a bit slanted view of things of this nature. In and around Washington D.C. theres a very heavy Federal government presence. In most of these places, a 2 inch blade limit is in place, and in almost all the gov't sponcered places like the Smithsonian you pass through checkpoints at the entrance. I've had guards look at a "normal" pocket knife of modest size and they pass it through without a second glance. Sometimes a nice Case or sak will even get a positive comment. But if its more than just a couple inches of blade, or looks too tactical, it gets stopped.

With alot of people in the greater Washington area working for the gov't in these buildings, there must be alot of employees carrying small pen knife size pocket knives. Sometimes it seems like every second person I meet in the Maryland suburbs is a federal employee.

Maybe I'm giving too much creadence to the long arm and ever watchfull eye of the big brother.

 

[knarfeng]

I was leaning towards this way of thought a bit myself. I had the idea that maybe because of where I live, I was getting a bit slanted view of things of this nature. In and around Washington D.C. theres a very heavy Federal government presence. In most of these places, a 2 inch blade limit is in place, and in almost all the gov't sponcered places like the Smithsonian you pass through checkpoints at the entrance. I've had guards look at a "normal" pocket knife of modest size and they pass it through without a second glance. Sometimes a nice Case or sak will even get a positive comment. But if its more than just a couple inches of blade, or looks too tactical, it gets stopped.

With alot of people in the greater Washington area working for the gov't in these buildings, there must be alot of employees carrying small pen knife size pocket knives. Sometimes it seems like every second person I meet in the Maryland suburbs is a federal employee.

Maybe I'm giving too much creadence to the long arm and ever watchfull eye of the big brother.

It's more than just the federal government. Large corporations are also instituting blade length limits. My company has a limit of 2" max blade length with max open length 4 1/2". Part of what is driving this is lawsuit protection. The companies are trying to protect themselves from some employee who is attacked and then sues the company for not creating a safe working environement. It sucks little green toads.

 

[knifetester]

Yep, all those darn trial lawyers (just kidding of course!)

I have downsized in the last few years. Used to be a large Sebbie and full size sak kinda guy. Now I carry my small sebenzas and a small slippie, a peanut usually.

I was turned onto the peanut here, and am still amazed by hoe useful these little knives are.

I still frequently carry a sak (farmer, solider, cadet or camper are most frequent) but rarely my old favorites-the rucksack or outrider.

Why the downsize- ease of carry, better perception by the general public (lower profile, less likey to print as a weapon)n but I guess most probative is the appreciation I have gained for the amount of work that a smaller knife can do- I found I just didn't need the bigger knives.

I also downsized from a truck to a much smaller sedan-- a trend?

 

[popedandy]

I was leaning towards this way of thought a bit myself. I had the idea that maybe because of where I live, I was getting a bit slanted view of things of this nature. In and around Washington D.C. theres a very heavy Federal government presence. In most of these places, a 2 inch blade limit is in place, and in almost all the gov't sponcered places like the Smithsonian you pass through checkpoints at the entrance. I've had guards look at a "normal" pocket knife of modest size and they pass it through without a second glance. Sometimes a nice Case or sak will even get a positive comment. But if its more than just a couple inches of blade, or looks too tactical, it gets stopped.

With alot of people in the greater Washington area working for the gov't in these buildings, there must be alot of employees carrying small pen knife size pocket knives. Sometimes it seems like every second person I meet in the Maryland suburbs is a federal employee.

Maybe I'm giving too much creadence to the long arm and ever watchfull eye of the big brother.

The Federal building requirement is in U.S. Code Title 18, Chapter 44, Section 930. Section 930 is the part that covers " 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities".

"The term “dangerous weapon” means a weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a blade of less than 2 1/2 inches in length."

Feds are okay with a pretty good variety of small knives. A number of agencies have slightly more liberal policies, and where I work the construction workers that come in are often carrying something about the size of a Buck 110 and the security folks seem to be just fine with that.

The only manufacturer I've heard talk openly about designing a knife specifically to meet the section 930 requirement is Spyderco. I think the design they are coming out with is going to be called the Urban. I see so few knives where I work that I think a manufacturer would have to be nuts to design small knives to cater to federal workers. I attribute a lot of the hardly-anyone-with-a-knife situation to the fact that a lot of our folks grew up in a suburban environment and probably never spent time doing anything where a knife would have come in handy. Hanging out at the mall with your friends isn't a particularly knife-intensive activity, nor is going to soccer practice or marching band camp.

As far as buying and using smaller knives is concerned, my personal opinion is that if you are strictly a desk jockey like me, a smaller knife will meet your needs just fine and will be more comfortable in your pocket than a bigger knife. Sure, it can be kind of cool to walk in with a monster tacticool blade, but for me the practicality of a smaller blade wins out. I have plenty of larger knives, and I do like to carry them when I'm off work, but at those times I'm also more likely to have a use for them.

 

[Raymond1000]

Help me out here fellas, I'm having a senior memory moment. I can't remember seeing many mini copies of knives when I was a kid. Now we have pocket hunters, mini-trappers, mini-toothpicks, butterbeans that are shrunk canoes.

Sure we had little pocket knives, like the ones with a bail and bead chain on them for a keychain. And if you wanted a small pocket knife, there was the Peanut. But back then almost all the little pocket knives I recall were of the two blade sleveboard or serpentine kind. Not minature copies of regular size knives in production. About when do you all think the mini knives came out? 60's? 70's?

If this is a fairly recent thing, like the last 15 year or so, do you think there was a real perception by Case that there was an increased demand for the the little guys?

And finally, how many of you have in the very recent past switched to a smaller knife?

How about the Jr. Stockman? An Old Timer Jr. Stockman was my first knife, back in the '50s. I never thought of it as a miniature version of a real Stockman. Just a compact Stockman pattern for easy carry and light duty work. Or not so light. My Jr. Stockman sheepfoot blade has cleaned many a car's battery terminal, and gotten somebody back on the road.

 

[mnblade]

The average person these days simply doesn't need as big a pocketknife as they used to. How many people, on a day-in day-out basis, have to clean game?* How many people have to castrate livestock?* How many people have to rig saddles and whatnot for horses?* How many people have to cut rope?* Hell, with everything pre-cut and perforated these days, how many people even have to cut open packages?

Folks lionize Nessmuk's holy trinity of knives on these forums, but if he were alive today I REALLY doubt he would carry those same tools. He was a product of very very different times. So, yeah, while I too cringe and recoil at sheeple paranoia over our "weapons," that is a different issue to me. Bottom line is that people these days carry smaller knives (the ubiquitous SAK Classic, for instance) because that's what they need.

Personally, I carry a peanut 9 days out of 10.


* Yes, of course I know there are exceptions - probably a few who post on this forum and are sure to chime in in response. But note that I wrote "how many people have to."

 

[jackknife]

The average person these days simply doesn't need as big a pocketknife as they used to. How many people, on a day-in day-out basis, have to clean game?* How many people have to castrate livestock?* How many people have to rig saddles and whatnot for horses?* How many people have to cut rope?* Hell, with everything pre-cut and perforated these days, how many people even have to cut open packages?

Folks lionize Nessmuk's holy trinity of knives on these forums, but if he were alive today I REALLY doubt he would carry those same tools. He was a product of very very different times. So, yeah, while I too cringe and recoil at sheeple paranoia over our "weapons," that is a different issue to me. Bottom line is that people these days carry smaller knives (the ubiquitous SAK Classic, for instance) because that's what they need.

Personally, I carry a peanut 9 days out of 10.


* Yes, of course I know there are exceptions - probably a few who post on this forum and are sure to chime in in response. But note that I wrote "how many people have to."

That statement hits the nail pretty square.:thumbup:

Yeah, in these "civilized" days we're not crossing the great wilderness, or homesteading out of a soddie anymore. With the great migration to the city after WW2 and the growth of suburbia in the last half of the 20th century, darn few of us live in a outdoor area anymore. Probably 8 out of 10 people in this country live in a suburban if not urban area. And with that lifestyle, a large knife is just not needed. Even for a knife knut.

Out of 35 million knives a year they produce, Victorinox makes 9 million classics a year. Thats almost one quarter of their massive production going into a tiny 2 1/2 inch pen knife with a sissors in it. With Victorinox being the largest knife company on earth, they must do market and demographic studies.

I wonder if alot of us just are outside of reality by being knife knuts. I mean, a passion for something can skew your judgement. i know and admit my own jugement has been skewed by the love of something. Sometimes we may think bigger is better. For a couple of decades I got by with a 600cc BMW R60. I didn't really need1200cc's of Harley-Davidson to ride cross country and back. Heck, since 2002 I've been getting around just fine with 150cc of Vespa. Kind of like the transportation version of going from a Buck 110 to a peanut, and finding the peanut does just fine 99.99% of the time.

Many good posts here, with some good reasons for the popularity of the new little versions of the old patterns. The pressure of political correctness, work place regulations, collector market, and like mnblade points out, lots of urban and suburban dwellers don't even need a knife most of the time. In my own neighborhood outside of Washington D.C., I'm still surprised at how few people carry a knife of any kind. Even working guys. I guess modern civilized life styles are bad for knives. Like guns, they are not a real daily needed item to feed your family, even though there may be "hostiles" in the city just as dangerous as on the great plains of the 1800's. (I ain't goin there, too political)

I guess I started this thread wondering at the reasons for the growth of popularity of mini-toothpicks, mini-trappers, mini-pocket hunters and such. You all ha ve made some very good validn points.

As for me, I think I like the little guys because being a knife knut, I can carry more of them in a single outing. With large 4 to 5 inch knives I'm limited. But a peanut in one pocket, a sak bantam in another, and a classic on a keyring while a Christy knife rides in the watch pocket, don't weight down my jeans much.

 

[VCM3]

With respect to collectors & traditional pocketknives,I think,the realization of the fact that people in the civilized world today,needing smaller knives,makes the larger patterns of the "old days",even more appealing to collect.I can see how obsessed collectors would want to collect miniature versions of the big knives,to kinda go with thier collection,like Sunny said
-Vince
BTW-Cool Thread

 

[fishtale]

This thread got me thinking about the big Buck 110. Seems everyone has one. My father never did...he always carried it's little brother.

Here's a picture of my father's pocket knife. He worked for a big supplier to NASA for 30+ years. He carried a Buck 506 for much of that time. The little 506 has seen an amazing amount of action.

He's since retired and lives in Florida. I called him the other day to ask about his knife. He said he always kept it in his watch pocket because it was small and easy to get to. It was part of his routine. He said he used it for everything from cutting copper wire to scraping slag!

Funny thing is that it's still got perfect lockup and zero blade movement in any direction. Very well made knife.

 

[Bastid]

I know this is a popular rant among knife nuts on this forum. But I don't think it holds much water, or at the very least, isn't supported by the notion that some kind of paranoia has resulted in the popularity of small knives. While it seems to be true that there are more little patterns now than in the past, I maintain that trend is because of the reasons I stated in my earlier post.

If I were wrong, then paranoia about edged objects would result in only smaller knives increasingly being on the market. However, I don't think this is true. There seems to be far more large knives on the market these days, from a wide variety of manufacturers, in a wide range of prices, than ever before. Thirty or forty years ago, pocketknives that measured about 5"+ closed were a rare sight and often somewhat specialized. These days, they are fairly common. Large traditional patterns have not only thrived, but are far outnumbered by large lockblades, tactical knives, etc. of various types. If paranoia about edged objects were out of control, the market for such large knives would have dwindled, not expanded.

My thoughts on this were based on real world experience rather than supposition or imagination or rants.

All I can say is that in the past
1. I never got comments on the size of a knife. I do now. I get the "who are you going to kill with that" comment often. Never heard it 10 years ago.

2. It is a fact that slipjoint makers are making a lot more small patterns than they did 10 years ago. They are increasingly on the market when it comes to slipjoint makers. Tiny trappers, copperlocks, baby butterbeans, baby sunfish were not around 10 years ago. You pretty much had the "Classic" peanuts and pen knife variants and that was about it.

As far as the "rant", I think it is quite valid. When I was young we were expected to have a pocket knife on us all the time. (By parents and teachers alike). Now a child will be suspended from school and the police will be called. Happens all the time here and makes the news.

All that said, I like the smaller knives 95 percent of the time, but I work in an office and live in a large city. About the only time I feel under knifed with a small kinfe is when I am in the woods or working on my house. (By small I mean 3 1/4" closed or less.)

Many Metro areas have passed laws in the last 10-15 years. It is illegal in Atlanta to carry a knife in your pocket with a blade longer than 3".

 

[shecky]

My comments, too, are based on real world experience. I find that nobody will make negative remarks when you use the right tool for the job. And this has mostly been the experience here in Los Angeles, not some little town in flyover country. I think the anti knife detectors among knife nuts is largely a matter of hypersensitivity over their chosen fetish.

The fact that more tiny knives are being made now means that the overall market has grown. The idea that people are paranoid about knives would mean that the market for large and tactical knives would have shrunk. But that isn't the case. Quite the opposite. Assisted openers didn't really exists 20 years ago, but are sold in Walmart these days. As is the Buck 110, not a small knife, for a lower price than ever before. One hand opening knives of all sizes, once a rarity, are commonplace. These things fly off the shelves at greater numbers than ever. This is not an indication that knife paranoia is rampant.

 

[Bastid]

I guess we'll have to disagree.

All the new laws regarding blade length over the last two decades and the fact that a kid carrying a knife to school now days will land them with a suspension and a trip to the police station pretty much convinces me that this is not a case of hypersensitivity over a chosen fetish.