More noob sharpening questions: how many steps?

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bdaabat

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More noob sharpening questions: How many steps?

I've seen a lot of content where people show their results after going through a series of different grit processes...going from more coarse to less coarse, and so on through several steps.

I've also seen content from folks using two steps (coarse and fine) showing great results. Heck, I've gotten pretty acceptable results using the Sharpal 162N as a total noob!

I've watched videos of people using sharpening wheels to get great results with a two step process (which feels more like a one step process...the second step feels more like polishing/stropping).

From what little I can understand, the entire point (ha!) of the sharpening process is to first create the desired angle of grind, then raise a burr, then use some method of removing the burr.

So....does one really need to (say) go through several different stones in the Edge Pro progression or several different bands for the Work Sharp KO in order to get really good results if you already have a reasonably good working knife?

I understand it depends on what you're starting with...a totally boogered blade vs. something in OK, just used condition. Am assuming most of my sharpening is going to be for knives that are in reasonably OK shape.

Am I just wasting time using the multiple stone progression or the multiple band progression?

BTW: I'm feeling a bit frustrated at not having some sort of objective/consistent way to measure the sharpness of the knives post sharpening. There's a part of me that feels that no matter what I've done, they COULD be sharper. While that is very likely to be true, it's also likely that there's a temptation to always be looking for way to get things sharper still, no matter how sharp things get.

Thanks!
Bruce
 
Sharpening Should be all science....
But it's NOT.

I think a Lot of it is philosophy, and/or a state of mind....like you are seeing.

All of us do things a little differently. We each want different things.

Our journeys lead different directions, and take different routes.
 
It all depends on your goal...and how particular or anal you may be. It can be as simple or as complicated as you choose.

If you just want a sharp knife that cuts well, it's a pretty straightforward process. If you want shiny bevels and a showpiece, it's more work.

I'm in the "good enough" category. Sharp enough to cut phone book paper without dragging in either direction, and sharp enough to perform the intended tasks. I don't care about polished edges and spending hours creating perfection...because then I'd be reluctant to use it and undo all the extra work.
 
"There's a part of me that feels that no matter what I've done, they COULD be sharper. While that is very likely to be true, it's also likely that there's a temptation to always be looking for way to get things sharper still, no matter how sharp things get."
Click to expand...
That's☝️ the rabbit hole of sharpening.

For awhile, years ago, I did go for more polished and aesthetically pleasing edges using a guided system. But after a point, I began to realize those edges still weren't performing in ways that I preferred. I eventually discovered that a more aggressive & toothy bite is what I liked. And edges like that can be created with little more than one or two stones. I firmly believe that good technique in finishing up on the first, coarsest stone goes much further in the long run, as opposed to going through multiple grit steps in that pursuit.

Nowadays, I'm also in the 'good enough for my uses' camp. If it cuts how I like it to, in the typical everyday uses I give it, then I'm quite content. But even so, I'm always 'touching up' my edges whether they actually need it or not, looking for yet another advancement in edge performance. For me, it's less about using more steps with more stones, and much more about improving my own touch and muscle memory for sharpening, even if I'm only relying on one or two stones and no more. I think there's an exquisite balance between getting as much out of edge performance as I can, all while doing it in the most convenient & simplest manner I can manage. That is what keeps me happy.
 
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I tell people to work backwards if the knife has been sharpened well to begin with—and is simply losing edge.

Start with the least aggressive move, if that doesn’t work progress backward until the knife works or you realize the angle is too obtuse, adjust angle and then work forward. You can go as far forward (refinement) as you need.

Some edges only need maintenance others need reworking.

I say stop the forward progression when the edge does what you need it to do. Paper cutting is not a proxy for just using the knife.
 
David and I seem to have a lot in common regarding our evolving points of view. (Though I think he's still ahead of me in his steadfastness.)

For example, I have a fully assembled Edge Pro Apex permanently set up alongside my shop sink downstairs. Nonetheless. if I've used it more than a dozen times over the years, I'd be surprised.

I just seem to enjoy freehand sharpening, or sharpening on the Spyderco Sharpmaker, or freehand followed by the Sharpmaker. (I have all the various Sharpmaker rods to handle pretty much any blade of reasonable size.) (And hones, galore. It's as bad as knife collecting.)

The Edge Pro serves more as a talisman for me...knowing that it's there in case I really need to fix a problem...whether pre-existing or one of my own making.
 
If you want to test the sharpness of your edge you could buy a BESS tester to give you a number for the sharpness. As others have stated how far due you want to go? You could also buy a cheap microscope to see if you are getting to the edge and if you are consistent along the length of the blade. Or you could take a piece of the grocery store advertisements and slice paper or phone book paper.

Some light reading for you on the subject:

J

Thread 'Finally Breaking 100 BESS—Thoughts & Feedback Welcome'

Hi Everyone,

My name is Jim, and I’m recently retired. Over the past year, I’ve been deeply immersed in collecting and sharpening knives, and I’d love to hear any feedback or insights you might have. I thought I’d share my sharpening setup and some of the key things I’ve learned so far.

Sharpening Equipment

  • I use a Tormek T-8 system with the following wheels:
  • Diamond wheels – DC, DF, and DE
  • Conventional wheels – SB, SG, and SJ
  • Felt honing wheels – Two 250mm Sliipakniven rock-hard felt wheels, one with 1µm diamond spray and the other with 6µm
  • Leather honing wheel –...
  • Like
  • Love
 
The Science Of Sharp

More Science

As it says in my signature at the bottom of my posts :
"Good Enough Is Good Enough but Better is Better"

Also . . . I didn't know what SHARPENING was or a sharp edge until I took on my ten year solid investigation / learning Fine Hand Tool Woodworking.
on cantankerous exotic hard woods such as Bubinga , Purpleheart etc.
Not only does one have problems such as "tearout" even when the edge is stupid sharp if the edge angle isn't within a cerrtain range of acuteness but the amount of effort (horse power ) it takes to push the hand tools through the wood is very noticeably effected . Always looking for the balance .
THEN one can tell the quality of edge / cutting effectiveness of one's sharpening efforts .
No question .
That spills over into everyday knife use ; you can FEEL how effective the edge is in the tougher / thicker things you cut .
Here are a couple of old photos with comentary :

The wood in the photo is Bubinga. Highly tear out prone, somewhat abrasive and ALWAYS HARD (think hard plastic with a tricksters passion for messing with you all the time). That's the first photo.



This is the final result with no finish on the table. Any misjudgment in the edge quality causes hunks to tear out and or the edge to just stop cutting and judder across the surface causing damage so pronounced one can see it from across the room.

1752452350467.jpeg

I guess I am saying choose one thing you use your knife(s) on all the time that challenges you and the edge and you will see when you improve your sharpening/attention to detail .
 
I had good luck with a Warthog sharpener which most people here would cringe at. Then, I switched to one of their fixed angle sharpeners and got even better results. All my knives shave, cut paper, and open cardboard boxes just fine.
 
You are right that the number of steps depends on the condition of the blade. But that just tells you what stone to start with.
The last stone is about the edge you want. And different people will want a different edge for the same task, because we don't all do it the same way.
Neither is the same edge ideal for every task, though a coarse or medium edge followed by a strop will be good for many things.
The real test for me is how the edge performs for its intended usage. Sure, I can get a mirror polished edge, an edge that cuts free hanging tissue, or one that performs well on a BESS tester. But that doesn't mean it's right for what you are doing. My hedge clippers don't perform noticably better, I just need that edge apexed.
So does the edge feel better than the last time you sharpened it? IRL that's improvement that matters.
 
Thanks for the feedback all!

Just to clarify:
I'm not exactly OCD, but I DO have a history of being serially obsessed with some specific thing for a while. For a while it was audio (specifically, headphone audio...I got pretty far down that particular rabbit hole...even built my own tube-based headphone amp from a kit); smoking (as in, the food cooker, not the other stuff); for a while it was wine; etc. I really do enjoy the process of learning, of testing, of figuring things out.

Right now, the thing I'm focused on is sharpening. And, I'm in the phase where I know just enough to be really dangerous. And, I'm trying to ingest all of this content...some of which is contradictory.

I do have SOME insight into my situation, so that's helpful. :cool:

Before starting down this rabbit hole, I thought my kitchen knives were fairly sharp. I was initially looking for ways to "touch them up". After learning a bit and getting better edges, I noticed a difference in the ease of use.

What this means for me is that what I thought was true earlier (e.g., I thought my knives were reasonably sharp), turned out not to be entirely correct.

Unfortunately, I'm early enough in the process that I don't yet know how to "feel" sharpness accurately. I've tried using supermarket flyers as test media, but the results for me are a bit variable (the paper sometimes rips, sometimes cuts...is that just cheap paper? Or, is there a dull section on the knife? Better keep sharpening!).

I've got a cheap magnifier, but I'm still learning what exactly I'm looking at.

The short version: I need a way of re-calibrating. I'd love to have a way of standardizing the degree of sharpness the knives have achieved, and do so without spending a boatload to purchase a commercial tester and test media.

Q: Do people rent the BESS testers?

Bruce
 
I rely on a DMT coarse (325 mesh) and fine (600 mesh) for just about all of my sharpening. Extreme polished edges don't cut as well as slightly coarser edges, I've found. I sharpen freehand, occasionally using an ancient Buckmaster angle guide (no longer made, sadly) for re-profiling.
 
Not sure how much else I can add, but going off Blues' first comment, really depends what kind of edge you're going for. That'll determine how many "steps" it'll take. Higher polish will require more stones/grits, and a coarser edge will require fewer. Also depends on the current state of your edge. Is it relatively undamaged and/or already at the angle you want? That's fewer steps going forward then. Not at the angle you want and/or has noticeable damage? Well you'll want to have a coarse stone step at the least so it doesn't take you forever to set a new bevel.

Other than that I wouldn't overthink it. I'd worry more about if you're forming the apex correctly and being consistent with your strokes rather than how many steps it all takes.

As far as a consistent test, for me I like to see how cleanly it can slice a paper towel. If you really wanna go crazy, see if it'll cleanly slice into a free hanging paper towel (just pinched/hanging from a single point). Both a properly sharpened coarse or polished edge should be able to do this, but a polished edge will do it cleaner with less resistance. Not to say polished would be better than coarse in actual use, but it's just the nature of the respective edge types. Sharpen for your task/how you want the knife to cut.
 
bmo419 said:
Other than that I wouldn't overthink it. I'd worry more about if you're forming the apex correctly and being consistent with your strokes rather than how many steps it all takes.
Click to expand...
Ha! Too late! :cool:

Yes, important to take a moment and realize, it's just knife sharpening. Basics first.

Will try the paper towel test.

BTW: I recently saw some YouTube video where the gentleman was using rolling papers as his final test for sharpness for his knife sharpening business. It's been ~ 45 years since I've purchased rolling papers, but that seems like an easy and low cost option to try.

Bruce
 
I use phone book paper, paper towels are also a good test...and you'll need a sharp knife to cut them cleanly. As others have said the edge you want to put on may depend on what you want to use it for.
Also a strop, or some way to clean up any burr left will be needed. I screwed that up when I first got into it.
 
i tend to use receipt paper b/c its free and I have plenty of it.

as for steps. depends on what I'm doing with the knife, but in general I'll start with a mediumish, 250 to 400 ish grit, and if that's not getting sharp I'll drop down coarser. if thats working, I'll go up a step or two - to Fine-ish, 600 to 800ish grit and maybe strop at the end. that gets me where I need to be for most of my knife work.

sometimes I'll go finer if needed for a specific use or have time to kill - but mostly just want to get my knife in good cutting condition
 
Hello,

I'm no professional, but dull knives can cut paper. Depending on the paper and how jagged your edge is, I have seen rounded apexes go through printer paper with no problem.

I check knives for sharpness (and roughness) by holding the knife in my right hand like a paring knife. Touching the very middle of my right thumb against the apex of the blade, and with 0 pressure if I can move my thumb at all without it biting into my skin, then it needs stropping. If I can apply light pressure and move my thumb up and down the blade without the apex catching, then it's dull.

Obviously be very careful doing any of this.

Also you don't need to go through every grit if you just need a sharp knife.
 
Knife guys who were "so preoccupied with whether or not they could, that they didn't stop to think if they should" end up not using their knives, as Blues said. One of my first knives that got me into the hobby, a CRKT minimalist, got so sharp and with a beautifully polished edge after I had a farmer's market craftsman touch it up for me (this is years ago before I knew how to sharpen). I already knew how quickly this knife tended to dull, being 0CrNothing steel at 12 HRC, so that didn't help. So its use was relegated to occasionally popping off arm hairs to impress people (who usually just gave me blank stares when I did it 🤣 ).

Now I don't care about the edge being a high grit, or polished. I only care that the apex is complete and the blade is thin behind the edge. The latter, in my opinion, is the real key to long term ease and enjoyment of cutting and maintenance.
 
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