More On Failed Gun Policies

[ibear]

'DON'T BLAME U.S. FOR YOUR CRIMES AND CRIMINALS'

BELLEVUE, WA – Reacting to the accusation from Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin that the United States is "exporting violence," the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms (CCRKBA) said Martin is trying to scapegoat an entire nation for his own failed leadership, and for crimes committed by his own citizens.

"On the same day that Prime Minister Martin was blaming the United States for his country's crime problem," noted CCRKBA Executive Director Joe Waldron, "CNN reported on a border arrest of two Canadian residents who were detained for trying to re-enter the country with handguns and ammunition concealed on their bodies.

"Ali Dirie and Yasin Mohamed are not Irish Americans from Boston, but residents of Toronto," Waldron said, "apparently trying to import guns illegally. And now that Mr. Martin has announced his plan to ban handguns in Canada, black market gun running is liable to take off just the same as illegal export of Canadian liquor into the United States during Prohibition, and with just as much success for the criminal underground in both countries.

"Canadian handgun sales have already climbed in anticipation of this ban, according to wire service reports," Waldron continued. "What Martin and other Liberals in Canada don't seem to grasp, or maybe they just don't care, is that a ban is only going to take guns out of the hands of law-abiding citizens. Criminals will still get guns, and Martin will continue blaming the United States for his administration's monumental failure to address a growing crime problem.

"Isn't it curious that crime has been climbing in Canada at the same time the Liberal government under Martin and his predecessor has been squandering billions of dollars on the gun registration fiasco," Waldron observed. "Martin and his Liberal cronies may not want to admit it, but gun rights activists down here in the states predicted this would happen from the outset. Canadian gun owners forecast the same thing, insisting that registering their guns would not prevent violent crime. Turns out gun owners were right, and all Martin can think of is taking further sanctions against his law-abiding citizens while doing nothing to actually reduce crime.

"It's all flash, and no substance," Waldron concluded. "The Prime Minister has no real solution to crime, so he blames honest gun owners and his good neighbor to the south for his government's failures."

iBear

 

[37up]

i disagree with this. we need to ban handguns outright. we need to put more money into youth social programs and ensure decent affordable housing to all members of society.

no one wants to be a criminal, we need to show that we haven't given up on anyone. that no one is left behind.

we have to address the obvious structural imbalances that exist in society.

 

[hdwrlover]

Dave,

I don't see how social injustice and crime is related to gun ownership by law abiding citizens.

If all guns were banned and confiscated from all citizens(except the military and police - as Clinton and Gore proposed), criminals will still get guns. And if they couldn't guns, they would use knives. And if knives were banned, they would screwdrivers, or clubs, etc.

By the way, if knives were considered for banning, "evil" knives such as khukuris would surely be among the first on the list.

 

[raghorn]

we have to address the obvious structural imbalances that exist in society.

I'm reading a very good book on this topic right now. It's a bit academic, but in it the author thoroughly examines the costs and consequencese of imposing social justice on the masses.

 

[Outdoors]

i disagree with this. we need to ban handguns outright. we need to put more money into youth social programs and ensure decent affordable housing to all members of society.

no one wants to be a criminal, we need to show that we haven't given up on anyone. that no one is left behind.

we have to address the obvious structural imbalances that exist in society.

Dave,
It's not clear to me that there's a direct correlation to banning guns and reduced rates of violent crime. Gun crime rates in the US went down during the period when the econony was doing well and at the same time states were passing right to carry laws. The City of Chicago has had a defacto handgun ban since the 80's, and it hasn't substantially affected crime rates there. Violent crime rates (including those with firearms) skyrocketed in Australia aftert the gun bans there.

I agree that we need to be spending more on social programs and affordable housing, but I don't agree that no one wants to be a criminal. There's a whole subculture in the US that glorifies the gang/illegal drug culture. The people who are promoting this culture (record labels, musicians, hollywood, etc) are making a fortune off of the hopelessness of others. That is shameful.

Legal gun owners have nothing to do with this glorification of violence. You don't see the NRA or S&W sponsoring gangster rapper tours. I do agree that addressing structural imbalances in our society (i.e. the rich/poor gap) would go a long way towards addressing the reducing youth violence in American society. To quote a well known former president "It's the economy, stupid". If kids have a good way out, and aren't bombarded by images of gangsters riding in limos surrounded by hotties, I bet crime rates will decrease measurably.

Pat

 

[munk]

Dave Hahn, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you a Canadian? Hasn't Canada deeply restricted handguns? And isn't violent crime rising in Canada? I respectfully suggest Canada continue to pursue what policies Canadians want, and to let the US pursue it's own agenda. That is why we have seperate nations, right?

I know that one of the reasons Canada curtailed handguns is the argument that teenage suicides were done using readily obtainable handguns. Surprise of surprises; the suicide rate in Canada continues to climb, and "Leaping suicides" replaced handguns as a leading mechanism for this, especially amongst young people.

As for getting at root causes of violence and disenfranchisement, during the last 40 years the US never spent more on education, for instance, and never had worse results.

Finally, I would like to caution all those seeking to ban handguns with the reminder that you can have mine after you raze my home to the ground and remove my private property from my corpse. This isn't a hostile threat, I just want you to be aware of the social cost of this policy.


munk the middle of the Roader.

 

[raghorn]

Finally, I would like to caution all those seeking to ban handguns with the reminder that you can have mine after you raze my home to the ground and remove my private property from my corpse. This isn't a hostile threat, I just want you to be aware of the social cost of this policy.


munk the middle of the Roader.

7 8 9 10

 

[kronckew]

i'm living in the home for failed gun control policies, since tony bliar has outlawed civilian owned guns except for a few farmers who are allowed shotgun permits, (as long as they are never used for self defense), gun crime has gone thru the roof, we've just had a policewoman shot at a robbery (she was unarmed of course) and her partner killed, on the other side of the coin police armed response units have shot a man carrying a table leg (it wasn't loaded) and a few people with replica firearms (now being outlawed, but technically still legal) as well as an unarmed brazilian subway rider.

the police response has been to recommend parents do not buy toy guns for their kids this christmas as police will shoot first & ask questions later. no ones been injured by a five year old with a plastic water pistol yet, but there is always the first time, i guess... don't ride the subway in london if you are brazilian either, that seems to be a executable offense.

they (the police upper echelons) have told the government they need the power to detain incommunicato without charge for 90 days, and just recently asked for the right to invade private property without a warrant. tony bliar was really upset that no one, including his own party understood the need to give up our rights when he was defeated for the first time in his primeministership - he seems to assume he works for the police, not the other way round. previous attempts to get rid of trial by jury have luckily also failed, so far. he's vowed to get the police what they want tho, as it's obvious he's right & the rest of society is wrong. one man , one vote & he's the one man with the one vote. he'll get his way eventually - after all the people are disarmed and can't object much.

pocket knives over 3in. or any sized lockable blade or fixed blade cannot be carried in public, and are frowned on in private, tho having to use one on your job may be a mitigating circumstance. the police get to decide if it's OK or not. pocket screwdrivers, flashlights are also 'offensive weapons' - an offensive weapon is anything the police may deem useable to cause injury if used offensively OR DEFENSIVELY (caps mine)

all the gang kids & crooks carry stanley knives, appears that that's OK. you can slash someone to death, just don't stab them. knives with points are being considered for outlawing, even in the home kitchen. microwave dinners will need pull-tabs as you won't be able to poke any holes in the plastic film cover. guess you could always hire a gang member to slit the film with his stanley knife tho.

crime stats keep going up as we have no legal way of defending ourselves & criminals are free to sue homeowners who injure the poor criminals during commision of their crimes.

of course, murderers get the full penalty of the law thrown at them, life sentances. eligible for automatic parole after seven years or sooner for good behavior.

kill a kid, and they'll even change your identity & relocate you somewhere after release with a good job & a free house to keep the irate public from being annoying. we can spend £150,000 a year keeping a murderer happy in jail too. a £5 piece of rope would leave £149,995.00 for better things in my opinion tho.

they'll probably consider that the policewoman who was shot brought it on herself by racially stereotyping her murderer just because he was an ethnic minority running from a shop where he was only exercising his right to self defense against the evil shopkeeper who wouldn't fork over his cash fast enough.

they've even stated that the police have no statutory obligation to defend you or respond in a timely manner, if you are the victim of a violent crime, they'll come by later to record it tho, if they can take time off revenue generation - as in traffic fines, and see if they can find any reason to arrest you for having tried to defend yourself.

socialism in action, if you were a kerry supporter & hate georgey, come on over to the peoples paradise.

p.s. - if anyone from the UK reads this & is tempted to borrow some of my hard-earned cash or possesions without my permission while i am out, please consider the resident 130lbs. of VERY sharp toothed canine landsharks that can run at 45 MPH, and if i am in, you'll probably trip & fall down on something sharp & pointy as we discuss the situation. after all, being a good socially responsible person, i don't want you to go to jail for hurting me, so i guess that means i'll just have to go to jail for hurting you instead.
_______________________________________________________________
CAVE CANEM ET SEMPER PARATUS
Dic, hospes Spartae nos te hic vidisse iacentes,
Dum sanctis patriae legibus obsequimur

If they don't want me to eat animals - why do they make them out of MEAT?

 

[Kazeryu]

my $0.02:

Banning handguns is a great way to reduce crime, if they're not already readily available. The fact is that there is a ridiculous number of unregistered/unknown handguns floating around in every city in North America. Making them illegal won't affect their use in crime -- the criminals don't walk around flashing their guns in the first place. Banning them when there are already this many in circulation probably won't make a difference at all in gun crime for a generation or two. Banning them now limits the criminal elements' "resupply rate" without touching their current stockpiles.

Now, if you were to go populate your own little island and declare yourself a sovereign nation and outlaw handguns right from the start, you'd have done well. But that's just not the case here.

Also, a word to my american friends -- There is an election race going on right now, so a lot of what's being bandied about by the politicians up here is probably just election grandstanding.

 

[Ad Astra]

Dave, you ARE kidding, right?

A few weeks or months ago, he was learning to shoot, and jumping thru Canadian hoops for the "privilege" of shooting a locked-up .22 rifle....

All that, and cold weather too...


Ad Astra

 

[kronckew]

my $0.02:

Now, if you were to go populate your own little island and declare yourself a sovereign nation and outlaw handguns right from the start, you'd have done well. But that's just not the case here.

we did just that over here in our own little island, the UK, see my above post, criminals can still get guns from europe, ex-communist countries, corrupt military supply sources, corrupt police supply sources, and they can even be made in any competant machine shop. the IRA had no problems getting supplied, and they weren't relying on guns stolen from honest citizens during buglaries.

the genie is out of the bottle for the last 600 years or so & won't go back in no matter how hard you wish. as long as you disarm honest citizens, criminals will get & use firearms. US states with right to carry laws have fewer, not more , gun crimes & fewer crimes in general, than ones that disarm honest citizens.

 

[raghorn]

If Canada continues down its current slippery slope Dave, you will get your wish. Just remember one thing: "Gun Control" is not about guns. It's about control.

 

[munk]

There is no earthly way a government can protect you from crime, unless it puts each of us in our own cell.

If you have as a staple then that the populace is not allowed to defend itself, or defend itself in parity with those outside the social contract, you will have social anarchy. Guns bring order, because their presence limits behavior, not the contrary, as long as the presence is equally distributed. I consider arms to be one of God's most brilliant strokes- a natural order, a natural law, if you wish. I cannot commit crime on my fellows because of what they will do to me in my failure.

And in a world increasingly removing individual responsibility, we see destruction, not peace.

munk

 

[Bandit5]

"You don't need no gun control. You know what you need? Bullet control. I think all bullets should cost $5000. You know why? If a bullet cost $5000 there'd be no more innocent bystanders. Or if someone has a score to settle, being like, "You know what, I would ******* put a cap in your ass... if I could afford it! I'm gonna save up some money, maybe get a second job or something, then you a mother******' dead man!"

- Chris Rock


I always thought that was funny. Plus you knw that the person who got shot must have really done something bad to deserve it.

On a serious note, as much as I HATE rhetoric, the NRA creedo "if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" does make sense if you look at it in a non-fantasy world. Right now, guns are legal and available. Anyone without a felony can legally buy a gun, hell, I could even make a functioning gun (not great quality or accuracy - but it would work) in my garage. If you were to outlaw guns, the ONLY thing you would be doing is taking guns away from responsible legal gun owners.

I can see this story turning out a little bit differently if his legally owned guns were taken away form him: http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=local&id=3623669

 

[37up]

Dave, you ARE kidding, right?

A few weeks or months ago, he was learning to shoot, and jumping thru Canadian hoops for the "privilege" of shooting a locked-up .22 rifle....

All that, and cold weather too...


Ad Astra

Ad you win!

 

[munk]

That's good to know. I can't imagine banning a handgun any more than I can imagine banning a Khuk- but the pressure is on and the khuk ban is just waiting for public awareness. Wait until the Brady crowd learns of these 'dismembering blades'.

In a house or room, I'm not sure a hand gun is more deadly than a khuk.


munk

 

[Ad Astra]

Ad you win!

I've lost my sanity, but the memory part is workin' OK.

Shoot, I 'member back when that concrete pillar chased your car all over Canada, before smashing it twice...

Gun control isn't a joking matter in the US or anywhere... I think it was Hillary who wanted to tax ammo 1000%.

Heard she was going to run against Condi Rice. Wonder which one would be worse, uh, better?

I'm NRA & I Vote.


Ad Astra :foot:

 

[37up]

originally i replied long and lengthy to the thread about how we instituted a very strict control on all forms of firearms and what did it really accomplish. About how we talk about punishing society and never the criminal.

I'm not going to say anymore on this subject.

I'm just plain tired.

 

[gravertom]

There is always the "2K"s

kevlar & Khukuri

Wouldn't get away with that walking down the street though.

I've wondered about those clear ballistic shields and a Khukuri for home defense. Thankfully, rifles and shotguns are still available to me. The aftermath of a Khukuri based defense of ones person would make an interesting court case.



I don't approve of vigilantes.

How quickly and vigorously they are gone after vs. other criminals reveals something though...

Tom

 

[hdwrlover]

News flash: Police Raid Home of Man and Find Arsenal of Deadly Knives

Police today served a search warrant on a man who was seen cutting down a tree with a khukuri by his neighbors. They witnessed the cutting efficiency of the weapon and felt threatened that it might be used against them in the future even though the man had no criminal record and had no complaints against him ever.

After the raid, the police displayed the over 100 confiscated khukuris, bowie knives, daggers, and swords to the news media. The local police chief commented that no citizen(except of course law enforcement) should have that many weapons unless he/she was planning a crime or terrorist act.

At least one California senator is proposing adding these to the list of dangerous items for licensing and background checks now being used for handguns. Another has proposed a one knife a month purchase limit and regulatory fees similar to that in use for handgun sales in the state. Others are considering a $100 per inch blade length tax that would be similar to the ammunition tax that has been proposed (and failed to pass) over at least the last 5 previous years. The legislators silently commented that they know knives can't be banned outright as they have legitimate, non-criminal uses, but additional revenue would be useful for their pet projects and they would be able to say during the next election that they improved public safety.