more wiring questions

ysforge

ysforge

Joined
Jan 10, 2005
Messages
655
Alright, got the motor grounded, plugged the cord in, and flipped the switch. The motor didn't turn on. I'm pretty sure something is wrong in my wiring though, as the air compressor DID turn on when I flipped the switch. I find this especially odd, since the air compressor is 110 volt not 220, and is (of course) on a completely different breaker!

I'ts not a coincidence, I tested it half a dozen times, the compressor motor coming on and turning off was directly correlated to the switch for the other motor being flipped.

Any idea's? could the receptical have the ground and nuetral swapped? I'm really scratching my head on this one.

Thanks,
Tony
 
Some more details on what you started with and what you are trying to achieve would be helpful.
Other than that, put the wiring back to the state it was in before you started, identify those wires as to exactly what they power or control, make a diagram of these wires, do the same for the motor and controller(switch?) that you plan to add, then incorporate the two on your diagram to use as a blueprint for the actual wiring. Hope this helps.
Pat
 
TURN IT OFF! The ground is somehow switched with one of the hot leads,and is backing up through the neutral (or some similar scenario).Either the motor is wired wrong or has a short in it,or there is a serious wiring error.Do what pjelect said - Undo all changes.Be very careful,as there may be 110 volts on the metal frame of any and all equipment in the shop.You may have as floating ground.If you are not totally secure in your wiring knowledge,get a friend who knows to check this out - a mistake could be fatal!!!
 
as Stacy says and to add and reiterate :eek:
Tony don't take this the wrong way...I'd like to see you make more knives..
if you got that far thinking you knew what you were done and now have
that problem , get someone that knows what they are doing, now!!..and turn off the power at the power box < do first :eek: ..

I'd recommend it highly... :eek:
to start with, if you are getting a line going up the ground
of the compressor and it is and was not grounded right in the first place :eek:
so your shop IS NOT Grounded or properly wired....

you have to ground to your box, one is from your earth ground out side the house or shop and one in from the power pole you are missing one of them
and your compressor is not frame grounded to earth ground from the box..

with out knowing just what you've done for sure I may not be dead on but you are in danger as you are set up now...

food for thought and more damage if you don't zap yourself first...
if your compress is on the other leg of the 220 in the power box,, (I know it's 110) and you turn on the compressor you'll now have 220 on the comp motor,,, so you'll blow it in time or sooner..
 
Thanks Dan,I was going to be more adamant about calling an electrician,but didn't want to appear a smart ass.This is the worst possible situation.Even with all switches off,touching a frame ground could electrocute you!!!!
 
:eek:
Do what these guys said!
The common/neutral wires all go back to the same terminal in the breaker box. If your running voltage through your motor back into the box you're running it to a lot more than just the air compressor. Anything thats 120 volts probably won't run as the 2 legs being hot will cancel out. But its a very dangerous situation, could have a fire, or get shocked on something very easily!
 
Matt Shade said:
:eek:
Do what these guys said!
2 legs being hot will cancel out. !
Click to expand...
I think that's the wrong word for it..either it's the same side or the other side.
it don't cancel out, let make sure we're on the some page..

when using breakers in-side a 220 box , two breakers side by side (one over the other) one is one side of a 220 line (110) the other is the other side of the 220 line (110 a different polarity from the other is the best way I can explain it)
, both lines used together you have 220 using one of those lines with a ground you have 110,
I think I see that the box is not grounded or something.. if the frame is, something would just blow if it was,, that's the danger, all the wiring is goofy.. before starting this wire job....
Stacy tell it the way it is here this stuff will kill someone fast..
 
I discovered that the wiring fault was on the other side of the Meter, they came out, and fixed their problem, now when I flip the switch, nothing happens :)

The good news is, the electrician is coming over tomorrow to get everything wired right.

I know enough to know that I'll fry myself if I play with electricity, All I had done was plug into an existing 220 plug.

The motor does work by the way, I had it tested, and everything was wired right.

Thanks for the warnings guys
Tony
 
Dan Gray said:
I think that's the wrong word for it..either it's the same side or the other side.
it don't cancel out, let make sure we're on the some page..

when using breakers in-side a 220 box , two breakers side by side (one over the other) one is one side of a 220 line (110) the other is the other side of the 220 line (110 a different polarity from the other is the best way I can explain it)
, both lines used together you have 220 using one of those lines with a ground you have 110,
I think I see that the box is not grounded or something.. if the frame is, something would just blow if it was,, that's the danger, all the wiring is goofy.. before starting this wire job....
Stacy tell it the way it is here this stuff will kill someone fast..
Click to expand...

Read my post again. I was talking about all of his 120V not working. In a 120V line you have a hot wire(black), a return(white), and an earth ground(usually bare, sometimes green). If you put 120V to the return, you now have no potential difference/voltage drop, so the machine doesn't run. This would lead some folks to thinking that there is no power to the machine, when in reality you've lost one of your ground connections and have a very dangerous situation.
 
Matt,you are missing Dan and my point.Yes the motor won't run,but why it isn't running is the danger.If you put 120 in the return line and 120 in the "hot" line you may have no potential,BUT THE WHOLE MACHINE IS STILL CARRYING 120 ABOVE GROUND,and if you touch it and you are grounded you will be shocked,possibly fatally. That would be if the 120 was the same phase as the other.If the 120 you apply to the neutral is a different phase,you have wired the motor for 240.When the switched phase is turned off the motor is receiving 120 from the neutral line and is leaking to ground,thus the motor runs,even though the switch is off.When the power switch is turned on the motor receives one leg of 120 from the hot side and another leg from the neutral side.In this case the motor is wired for 240,and will blow up immediately.
The problem the power company fixed was a bad neutral or ground .If they are not both zero to earth ground the wiring is very dangerous.When they fixed it the floating ground disappeared,and the breaker would trip,due to a hot lead being wired to the neutral,which is the same as ground.
ELECTRICAL WIRING CAN SEEM SIMPLE,BUT MISTAKES IN WIRING CAN BE FATAL!!!
 
thanks Stacy
we all want to remember if you have 220
coming in from the POLE you are set up with a 220 entrance,,
even though you can use one leg as 110 and the other leg as 110.
don't try this at home kids..
if you touch just one leg and you are not grounded it can't hurt you, ( in most cases)
if you touch the other leg and you are not grounded it can't hurt you. ( in most cases)
if you touch both of the legs at the same time and are not grounded
it will kill you ( in most cases)
grounded or not...you'll now have 220 volts and at least 100 amps running through you :eek: this not GOOD for you..

Note
if the neutral / ground blows off from the pole transformer you now will have 220
on your 110 outlets (confusing) I had this happen when lightening hit my pole once
that will start some stuff blowing in the house.. not so funny
strange things can happen if the entrance is not right..
as we've seen here.

Matt I see what you mean, if I read you right
if your 110 motor is wired up and with the motor switch in the on position
and the ground at the box is a no contact you basically have 110 at that
point on the ground wire resisted by the motor as long as the frame ground
is not working properly ..if I said that right..
both grounds ultimately end up from the same place..earth

as I thought the box wasn't grounded right :) Tony I'm glad you'll live to make
another knife :D some day I'll tell you guys a few hair razing stories when I can type faster maybe :rolleyes: :D

OK :rolleyes: :D one would be
did you know you can get dead touching 440 with out touching a ground..
you are grounded by the moisture in the air with that type of voltage.
and
you never want to cause an ark in side of a 440 box either :eek: unless you want others to see a nice display of fire works without the black powder.. :eek:
I say others because you'll be blinded if not dead for a while.. :eek:

edited to add
I might add
the arc will cause a gas that is explosive and will explode because of the arc it's interesting how this can feed itself
 
I don't know why I get into these threads :rolleyes:
What I meant, is that he probably has voltage going back to the breaker box somehow because of the new motor. This would likely be from a neutral or ground wire being hooked up wrong.
If you run 120 to the new motor through the black wire and it crosses and goes back to the breaker box through one of the grounds, you potentially have 120 volts going into the termial that all of the white/neutral wires in the box are tied to.
This could lead to no potential on any 120 volt machines hooked to that breaker box when the new motor is on, and only 120V potential on 220V motors. They would not work, and a person might get the idea they don't have power to them. That is not how you want to treat the situation!
I never said stuff wasn't hot. I said it wouldn't run. I know that you still have 120V above ground on the machine and that is why I said in my first post " you could get shocked or start a fire very easily" and in my second post said " you've lost a ground and have a very dangerous situation"
 
Matt Shade said:
What I meant, is that he probably has voltage going back to the breaker box somehow because of the new motor. This would likely be from a neutral or ground wire being hooked up wrong.
"
Click to expand...
Matt just plain not hooked up In this case he said he just plugged it into an outlet..
in your crossed wire case
if the ground was hooked up to a proper ground it would have blown something.
or burned the wire off if it had crossed with a live line...talking 110

this motor showed a major problem with the meter lines anyway..bad things waiting to happen..
 
Dan, I was standing in a factory once when I saw someone short himself with a 440 line. He was thrown 35 feet into a sheet metal machine guard, He didn't die, but he did smash the sheet metal guard, and his arm was lost, it was already black before the ambulance got there.

I've had a new respect for electricity ever since then.

Tony (who doesn't stick his fingers in light sockets)
 
ysforge said:
Dan, I was standing in a factory once when I saw someone short himself with a 440 line. He was thrown 35 feet into a sheet metal machine guard, He didn't die, but he did smash the sheet metal guard, and his arm was lost, it was already black before the ambulance got there.

I've had a new respect for electricity ever since then.

Tony (who doesn't stick his fingers in light sockets)
Click to expand...

:D
yes there are cases I'd not tempt..
I knew a lineman that once got zapped by a High tension line while on a pole
it through him off the pole and to the ground,, :eek:
it blew a hole out the side of his gut,, he lived for years after that..
they said if it wasn't for the fall he would have die on the pole , I guess
the fall started his heart going, something about the electricity doing something to his blood momentarily solidifying it :confused:
the fall didn't help out some of the bones in him either, he lived in an iron lung for sometime after that :(
 
Years ago I met the man who demonstrated the first isolated from ground telescopic bucket truck.To show how safe it was,he went up to a 33,000 volt line in the bucket and took off his hot gloves.He reached out and grabbed the live line.He started shaking and the observers thought he was toast.He then looked down at the group and smiled.Afterwards,when he was told of their fears,he said he was shaking because it took all his might to make himself touch the line.He knew it was safe,but his mind knew it was a lethal situation if there was any error.
Stacy
 
bladsmth said:
Years ago I met the man who demonstrated the first isolated from ground telescopic bucket truck.To show how safe it was,he went up to a 33,000 volt line in the bucket and took off his hot gloves.He reached out and grabbed the live line.He started shaking and the observers thought he was toast.He then looked down at the group and smiled.Afterwards,when he was told of their fears,he said he was shaking because it took all his might to make himself touch the line.He knew it was safe,but his mind knew it was a lethal situation if there was any error.
Stacy
Click to expand...

interesting I may have to be corrected
about not having to be grounded to get zapped from high tension lines
that the moisture is enough to ground you.. what's with that info I got?

man I was duked wasn't I :D
 
Dan Gray said:
interesting I may have to be corrected
about not having to be grounded to get zapped from high tension lines
that the moisture is enough to ground you.. what's with that info I got?

man I was duked wasn't I :D
Click to expand...

That depends on your distance from earth, and whats between you. The half inch of rubber in your shoes isn't enough resistance for things like high tension lines or lightning bolts.
Electricity will arc through air if you've got enough power. IIRC in a physics class I took, they said it was about 10,000 volts per inch to arc across air. The amount of current there is what will determine how crispy you get though (same reason a 120V house line will kill you, and a 50,000volt taser will just knock you flat).Thats why a lightning bolt can zap your ass just about anywhere if it decides to hit you. If there's enough juice to push it across miles of open air, any little bit of insulation your skin or clothes add up to don't even phase it. You're ALWAYS grounded (unless you live in a faraday cage), its just a matter of how good of a conductor is doing it.
Thats why they have to make wasp spray thats non conductive up to 50,000 volts or whatever it says on the can. Some idiot might try to spray a nest on a transformer :eek:
 
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