MT 154CM v/s Spyderco 440V

John Puckett · Apr 5, 2001

Which one of these steels is best?

The General · Apr 5, 2001

Depends what you are going to use it for and what situational circumstances apply, oh and what the knife is.

IMVHO

CPM440V holds an edge a LOT longer than 154CM. I am talking a three fold improvement for me (Spyderco Military V Microtech LCC)
I get a dull spot on my LCC D/A opening a bag of dog food today (cutting the string bindings) It steeled out ok, so I think it was edge rolling.

However, CPM 440V is probably not as tough as 154CM, it will roll, where 440V (I will call it 440C for shortness) will probably chip out. However the 440V used by Spyderco is at a lower Rc (mid-high 50s) so it is the toughest 440V short of a custom model. I think Kershaw are not up to speed with this steel yet.

For me 440V is MORE rust resistant than 154CM. However it is harder to sharpen and get the edge 'just right'.

For me, I would go for the cutting power of 440V over 154CM, for a tougher blade I would go for 154CM (or more likely M2). 154CM is more simple to sharpen.

What blades are you looking at?

Hint, go for the Spyderco Military..

Let me know if I can help, as I feel I own the knives you are looking at

BOTH are GREAT!!!

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Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

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John Puckett · Apr 6, 2001

Thanks for the reply General. The MT I was talking about is a LCC and the Spyderco I was talking about was the Military. I have a LCC now and I really like it but, I only have one Spyderco and all I have heard about the Military is good things so I was thinking of getting one. I had a Military a long time ago, but sold it because I wanted more Benchmades back then. I have been thinking about buying another Military and I just wanted some info on the 440V. Thanks.

The General · Apr 8, 2001

Great guess!

The Military is the better utility blade of the two. As my local dealer said when looking at my LCC "very heavy for a smallish blade"

But the LCC is a tank and one of my fav blades of all time.

Give patti at SFO (Spyderco) a call and pick up one of the Pearl inlay Militaries up before they all go, I have one and it is AMAZING!!! They cost a mere $125!!!

One of the best blades of the year IMHO

440V by Spyderco is GREAT GREAT GREAT!!!

Hope it helps

------------------
Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
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FullerH · Apr 9, 2001

I have the Military and the StarMate and I prefer the StarMate as an easier knife to handle and to carry. They are both 440V and very durable, but I fing the StarMate a bit more comfortable.

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Walk in the Light,
Hugh Fuller

dogboye · Apr 9, 2001

hee, hee, hee....

That's for Hugh, because I bet he knows what's coming next.

Steel vs. steel, I'll take the 154CM over 440V any day, in factory knives. If you want a Military, the 440V is OK. If you are considering a Military as a good vehicle to get 440V, don't bother. 440V is OK, but it isn't a significant improvement over 154CM in my use.

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The most affectionate creature in the world is a wet dog. - Ambrose Bierce
Most dog owners are at length able to teach themselves to obey their dog. - Robert Morley

iktomi

The General · Apr 9, 2001

Trust me, CPM 440V walks over 154CM

Both are good steels! I am happy with either, but 440V get my vote!

Just my opinion! (Whatever thats worth)

------------------
Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!

dogboye · Apr 10, 2001

General, I think you better have your LCC checked out. Unless you nicked your dogs food, and you're feeding it rocks. Either steel should be able to go through THAT without getting dulled. Yes, even 440V should be able to do it without getting dulled.

Yes, I will admit that 440V is a better edge holder on many substances than 154CM, but in my experience, not significantly better. But on some things, it is significantly worse. 440V will get dull, and it will do it surprisingly quickly for the way that it is touted around here, and in magazines. Which is why I said, if John wants to get a Military, then 440V is fine. If he wants to get 440V, and the Military is a vehicle to get that steel, don't bother. The LCC that he already has is just as good a knife as the Military, albeit heavier. The 440V in the Military is not significant enough an improvement over the 154CM to warrant buying it, unless he just wants the Military.

Betweenmy MT LCC and my Military, the MT LCC still has its shaving edge, after significant use, including cutting open an aluminum can (Beamish). The Military loses its shaving edge after using it once on just about anything, other than cutting a slice off of paper to test the edge. It will hold its lesser, decent edge a long time; but hey, what fun is that?

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The most affectionate creature in the world is a wet dog. - Ambrose Bierce
Most dog owners are at length able to teach themselves to obey their dog. - Robert Morley

iktomi

Cliff Stamp · Apr 10, 2001

Rockspyder, it sounds like to me that you are seeing a wire edge breaking off / rolling if you are seeing 440V lose its razor its that fast. When you sharpen it to shaving sharp will it shave equally smoothly on both sides of the bevel? Can you take a nice strip of hair off *both* your left and right arm?

-Cliff

dogboye · Apr 11, 2001

yes

Plus, I would hope that the original factory edge didn't have a wire edge. It behaved the same originally in both the specimens of 440V that I have.

Yesiree, both my arms are bare.

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The most affectionate creature in the world is a wet dog. - Ambrose Bierce
Most dog owners are at length able to teach themselves to obey their dog. - Robert Morley

iktomi

bansidthe · Apr 11, 2001

One would hope that the factory edge was sharp, however my spyderco native purchased a month or so ago had a poor factory edge. It took a while to put on a shaving edge. Not only was the steel hard to sharpen but i had to strop with very light stroke to lose the wire edge ( after examining the edge with a small microscope ).

Cliff Stamp · Apr 11, 2001

I would not count on the NIB edge to mean much of anything, I have seen them in all kinds of states both from production and custom blades. However if you can shave equally well on both sides it would seem a strong indication to me that there is no wire edge. It could of course be perpendicular to the blade, but that is rare. What way are you finishing the sharpening?

I discussed CPM's and soft tempering with Phil Wilson awhile back and he had problems just as you describe but the RC he was using (52) was much lower than Spyderco's.

Were you the one that had his 440V Military sent back into to be RC tested? If so what it
did come out to?

In any case, if you have seen two 440V blades (both Spyderco's?) act in identical ways, and none different, that is a decent argument for either (a) that is the way they behave in general, (b) QC is fairly poor.

Have you used any of the 59 RC 440V blades?

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 04-10-2001).]

dogboye · Apr 10, 2001

Originally posted by Cliff Stamp:
.....What way are you finishing the sharpening?

Stropping on the fine ceramic of the Spyderco 203. I tried leather, and no matter how nicely sharpened I had it on the 203, as soon as I took it to leather, it was shot. 440V is the only steel that I have this trouble with. Anyway, I take the last stroke or two on either side and very slightly steepen the angle while lightening the force (like I read in one of the articles by, I think, Ed Fowler). Every other type of steel that I do this with takes the nicest shaving edge, and holds it well, provided it is a good steel to start with: D2, ATS-34, 154CM, and BG42 all work great this way. I REALLY don't think I'm getting a wire edge on it (440V).

Were you the one that had his 440V Military sent back into to be RC tested? If so what it
did come out to?

Not my Military, but my BFc Native. It Rc'd at 55.5.

In any case, if you have seen two 440V blades (both Spyderco's?) act in identical ways, and none different, that is a decent argument for either (a) that is the way they behave in general,

My theory.

(b) QC is fairly poor.

I don't want to think this.

Have you used any of the 59 RC 440V blades?

No, I haven't. And while I'm curious about how it would perform, I'm reluctant to pay the money for a custom (the only ones that I know of that HT this hard), when the steel is the single type that has let me down the most out of all that I've had.

I'm not saying that 440V is bad by any means. I'm just saying that it isn't nearly as good as I thought it would be, and not good enough to be a significant improvement over 154CM in the work that I have used them for.

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The most affectionate creature in the world is a wet dog. - Ambrose Bierce
Most dog owners are at length able to teach themselves to obey their dog. - Robert Morley

iktomi

[This message has been edited by rockspyder (edited 04-10-2001).]

The General · Apr 10, 2001

I am interested about the 154CM comment. However I only used a VERY small part of the edge (2cm) and the string was filled with the grity DRY dog food. I had also used that part of the blade on a pencil a few days ago.

It is on the factory edge and several passed on a steel (ribbed) brought it right back. Also the string was VERY tight and I had to rock the blade and torque a little to cut, plus I was a little rough and did not take my time with the job. Nothing worse than looking a sissy using a LCC D/A. Once the edge has lost its factory edge (IMHO means nothing to me) I will give it a sharpen and see what it can really do.

I have never been THAT chuffed with 154CM or ATS-34. MAybe because my style of use is fast but small movements on a small part of the blade. I prefer the control of this over using the whole length of a knife.

------------------
Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
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dogboye · Apr 11, 2001

Hmmmm... I don't know what to say about the dulling. I mean, theoretically, the 154CM should be plenty harder than the string. But, then again, one of the main knife tests is cutting hemp rope. So, who knows. I've used several of my 154CM knives (Benchmade and MT) to cut my dog's food bags open, and all of them go through like butter and shave like a champ afterwards. Even the Military.

So, anyway... The Military is an excellent knife, and I certainly wouldn't recommend anyone avoid it just because it has a S60V blade. But, likewise, I would recommend it because it has a 60V blade, either. The knife design is good enough to stand on it's own right (well, unless it was in something like 420HC or AUS6... YECHHHH!)

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The most affectionate creature in the world is a wet dog. - Ambrose Bierce
Most dog owners are at length able to teach themselves to obey their dog. - Robert Morley

iktomi

The General · Apr 11, 2001

Interesting! I agree 110% with you rockspyder. 154CM aught to have taken the material with no trouble at all. I was very much taken aback by this. I doubt if the steel is such a low Rc to cause this as you would be looking at high 40's?. More likely the edge was worn and the bag tipped it over the edge. Tell you what, I will take the knife to some cardboard and begin cutting. That will tell me something. It is also possible I hit a brass staple by accident (though I did not feel this).

A bit strange, well I have spent hours getting my MOD CQD down to 20 Degrees and I am still at it! This 154CM is HARD! I will look a little more closely at my LCC.

One thig I have noticed with S60V is how it loses the wire edge that shaves almost as quickly as any other good steel, however after this point where other blades get duller and duller this knife keeps going for a long time. Perhaps it is the Vanadium in it still cutting? I don't know, but it works for me!

Cheers!

------------------
Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!

dogboye · Apr 12, 2001

Originally posted by The General:
One thig I have noticed with S60V is how it loses the wire edge that shaves almost as quickly as any other good steel, however after this point where other blades get duller and duller this knife keeps going for a long time. Perhaps it is the Vanadium in it still cutting?

I agree. I think you 'bullseyed' it, Wayne.

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The most affectionate creature in the world is a wet dog. - Ambrose Bierce
Most dog owners are at length able to teach themselves to obey their dog. - Robert Morley

iktomi

Cliff Stamp · Apr 12, 2001

Why not simply cut up some of the dog food and see what that does to the edge. While it is decently hard I can't see that impacting the edge that readily. However I have never cut it up before. I will when I go home this evening however as I am fairly curious now.

Interesting comments about the leather. If this plain or do you have a stropping compound on it? In regards to your comments about you not producing a wire edge because of the success with other steels I would tend to agree with the following note.

The tendancy to form a large burr is increased as the RC drops, this is quite simply because the pressure caused by the small hones will roll the edge rather than cut into it. As well the more harder to machine the easier it is to form a burr. Note than 440V has a large amount of Vanadium carbides which are harder than the Spyderco rods.

When dealing when steels like this you have to make sure your hones are very clean and fresh. If they are worn and/or dirty then even light pressure will cause a burr as they can't readily grind metal off. However if you can shave as in the above this doesn't seem likely.

This is almost interesting enough to make me want to buy one of the 440V Spyderco's, if they put one out with a compression lock I just might.

-Cliff

dogboye · Apr 12, 2001

Originally posted by Cliff Stamp:
Interesting comments about the leather. Is this plain or do you have a stropping compound on it?

It has a compound on it. I suppose you'd call it jeweler's rouge?

Note that 440V has a large amount of Vanadium carbides which are harder than the Spyderco rods.

That comes as a complete surprise to me!

This is almost interesting enough to make me want to buy one of the 440V Spyderco's, if they put one out with a compression lock I just might.

Gunting?

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The most affectionate creature in the world is a wet dog. - Ambrose Bierce
Most dog owners are at length able to teach themselves to obey their dog. - Robert Morley

iktomi

[This message has been edited by rockspyder (edited 04-12-2001).]

The General · Apr 12, 2001

I will have a closer look at this bag of food and see if I missed something...

Like a big staple etc.

Cheers!

------------------
Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!