Museum Model input please

[Svashtar]

Guys, got this apart tonight. The tang was heavily peened over so I had to do quite a bit of filing to free it up. A few minutes with a heatgun and a few gentle whacks on the back ring did the rest.

The entire blade and tang looks great to me. And if you waded through my other post you can see it saw some heavy use today and held up fine.

Please see the attached pics. There was not that much laha inside the hollow handle if you ask me. Of course I'm not a knifemaker, but can see that the slight amount if internal flex of the tang broke the brazing on the back of the front ring.

The bolster came off pretty easily with just a little heat and tapping.

My initial plan is just to fill everything with acra-glas or JB Weld and put it all back together. The steel bolster is brazed to the front steel guard, and that's all intact. I just need to lock the handle to the front guard. JB or acra on the inside and outside of that connection should do it I would think?

I don't want to get too much heat that close to the tang by attempting to reweld or braze the handle to the guard, but I may be wrong and that could be done?

Let me know what you think.

Thanks,

Norm

 

[Svashtar]

Two more pics of the cleaned up tang. There was not that much laha on it.

I would appreciate any advice on how to get all the laha out of the interior of the handle. Just scraping it out will take quite a while, but it may come to that. I can pick most of it out of the bolster.

Thanks,

Norm

 

[Aardvark]

Norm, the last time I did anything with laha, I used a heat gun, as you did, to loosen it. It scraped out quite nicely when warm.

The only handle I ever had disintegrate was bone, also with too little laha (hollow handle). I filled mine with JB Weld, and it's been fine ever since.

Still don't trust bone handles, though.

 

[Bladite]

mmm, the blade looks fine to me

the brazes are kinda of thin and anemic look (well, literally ;> no iron ;>), a good solid braze line should be SOLID, and it's looking like it didn't bond so well... mmm... i'm wondering if it's a flux issue, or that brazing works better in situations where there's more mechanical link-up. i don't think brazing is necessarily strong enough for chopping. hacking up bodies, maybe.

what you COULD do is clean up the bits, remove the brazing materials, and WELD the pieces together. forget brazing... then figure out a material that could be used to fill the tube better - perhaps a strong epoxy filled with glass. consider pinning the handle as well?

OR someone good at putting cast handles on... EDMF? i believe they do that if asked.

OR you could have a shop fabricate a solid metal hand with rings - perhaps in solid brass, and then nickel plate it. swanky

but the blade looks like a keeper to be sure

getting the laha out. boil the handle in water. boil boil boil. outside

first get some cloth diapers, tshirts, shop rags, and run a tight strip inside the handle, then boil it cloth and all, then with gloves, run the cloth though the handle to get laha out. toss cloth. insert fresh one. repeat. the idea is that the cloth is there when you remove from heat... otherwise you lose time and it'll set again. or you could heat with a super hair drier, keep it hot, and run cloth in tight, twist a lot... pull out.

mmm, pewter casting is easy too

bladite

 

[Bladite]

oh oh, what's that stuff in the tube? it's like liquid metal paste? not jb weld, well, maybe, that's a whole product line of glues i thought...

this squeezes out like glitter paste, but hardens solid later, and can be worked, filed, etc. pretty strong? fill the handle with THAT, coat the tang with a thin sheen of vaseline, or perhaps plastic wrap (in case, someday, you have to remove it...) then ram it home. hopefully it'll be very solid and fill all the spaces better than glass filled resin/epoxy.

bladite

 

[munk]

Why couldn't you put the handle into a pot of mildly boiling, or just very very hot water, or low temp in the stove to get the rest of the laha off?

(would it loosen the brazed guards? didn't think so.)


munk

 

[Daniel Koster]

Just going to have to run the heat gun on it and scrape it out with a screwdriver. (munk posted the same time as me...his idea would work better)


Personally, I would clean that rascal out, soak it in acetone or mineral spirits or turpentine. Then carve down a piece of straight-grained hardwood to fit inside the metal handle. Drill out the appropriate hole for the tang (oversize is fine...still better than no wood at all). Glue the wood in, and glue the tang into the handle. That would bring it closer to indestrucible.


You did a pretty dang nice job of cleaning up the tang!


Don't braze the guard back on. Just clean it up and use some JB Weld on it.

Oh, and use acraglas for the handle.

 

[munk]

As long as we're on this subject, I have a very old plow/ tractor lever/ tool handle made of metal, mostly rusted on the inside. It has a nice swirl of metal on the edge like a partial guard.

Dan, how do I get the rust out of the inside of this metal handle so I can use it for a knife handle?


munk

 

[Bladite]

As long as we're on this subject, I have a very old plow/ tractor lever/ tool handle made of metal, mostly rusted on the inside. It has a nice swirl of metal on the edge like a partial guard.

Dan, how do I get the rust out of the inside of this metal handle so I can use it for a knife handle?


munk

how about:

http://www.davidbradley.net/ERR.html

bladite

 

[munk]

Wow, wow, Bladite. I could do that at home.

What great links.


munk

 

[Yvsa]

what you COULD do is clean up the bits, remove the brazing materials, and WELD the pieces together. forget brazing... then figure out a material that could be used to fill the tube better - perhaps a strong epoxy filled with glass. consider pinning the handle as well?

bladite

Just going to have to run the heat gun on it and scrape it out with a screwdriver. (munk posted the same time as me...his idea would work better)


Personally, I would clean that rascal out, soak it in acetone or mineral spirits or turpentine. Then carve down a piece of straight-grained hardwood to fit inside the metal handle. Drill out the appropriate hole for the tang (oversize is fine...still better than no wood at all). Glue the wood in, and glue the tang into the handle. That would bring it closer to indestrucible.

Don't braze the guard back on. Just clean it up and use some JB Weld on it.

Oh, and use acraglas for the handle.

Norm I think Bladite and Dan both have the right idea.:thumbup: As picky as I know you can be if you did like Bladite says you could take the entire handle apart and clean up all the scratches on the disks and then take it somewhere that does both Heliarc and/or TIG welding and have it welded on with steel. With the Heliarc a man would have to use a steel rod and weld the pieces together without any spatter. I'm not sure if the TIG weld spatters or not but I seem to recall some spatters on a TIG weld once, you can always ask.

Then continue on as Dan has suggested and you should be good to go from now on. With the handle off the tang there wouldn't be any heat transfer so no worries about that. A nice weld would look like a layer of very small coins laid at an angle across each other, Beautiful when done correctly.:thumbup:

Whatever you choose to do be sure and take enough off the center piece of the handle to insure that you can peen the tang over when assembled.

Almost forgot:
I have always just chipped the laha out of the handles and saved it thinking I might use it again to reassemble but never have. Our epoxies are much stronger.
I've never tried it but if you put the handle in the deep freeze for a while the frozen laha may become brittle and even easier to chip out.

 

[Svashtar]

Thanks to all of you for the great suggestions, especially for the handle clean up. Should have thought of that. Great tip on the towels Bladite. Clever. Joe, I've heard that bone can be strong, but have also heard of several handles blowing up with it. Glad to hear the JB weld works for handles as well.

So Yvsa, what you are suggesting sounds great but I am trying to figure it out and reconcile it with what Dan said. You are saying to take the front round guard / bolster assembly (remember it is one unit right now) and weld it onto the handle off the knife, which makes sense. And then I would fill the handle through the slot in the bolster with acraglas and run it on. (?) That's one option that would mimic the way Kumar made it, but it would be much stronger, welded instead of brazed..

But Dan is saying to get a peice of wood in there so don't think I could weld it up with wood inside. In Dan's scenario I would use JB on the bolster/guard and then fill the wood insert with acraglas and put it on, ostensibly leaving a bead of the epoxy around the handle/guard ring where it is currently brazed.

In either case I know to remove some of the handle to handle the shortened tang.

Yvsa, were you suggesting I redo the back ring as well? It's on there pretty good right now, but I could get it off with a torch.

I'm fairly handy with wood, but not sure if I can get a peice of wood in there that is drilled out enough to get this long tang in. I guess I could, but it would have to be slathered with epoxy so it wouldn't shift and to take up the rest of the interior space.

Let's see, wood insert drilled out, then insert into hollow handle surrounded by acraglas and bedded in. Then if I could just find a way to get the front ring/guard/bolster assy welded on without setting the insert on fire!

(I wonder if anyone has found a way to use a step type drill for handles? So the hole is tapered just like the tang I mean. Seems a waste of material and not the best construction to drill the same diameter hole all the way through the handle?)

Thanks guys. You've given me a lot to think about.

Norm

 

[Svashtar]

You did a pretty dang nice job of cleaning up the tang!

Thanks Dan. A heavy wire wheel at 3600 RPM will do that!

Personally, I would clean that rascal out, soak it in acetone or mineral spirits or turpentine. Then carve down a piece of straight-grained hardwood to fit inside the metal handle. Drill out the appropriate hole for the tang (oversize is fine...still better than no wood at all). Glue the wood in, and glue the tang into the handle. That would bring it closer to indestrucible.

The challenge with this Dan is getting the wood oriented correctly inside the handle. But I guess I could get the wood in there set in acraglas and then drill it out while in the handle. Hmm, what about just pumping the whole thing full of AG and letting it dry and then drilling it out?

Don't braze the guard back on. Just clean it up and use some JB Weld on it.

Oh, and use acraglas for the handle.

OK. Thanks a lot Dan.

Norm

 

[not2sharp]

I'm fairly handy with wood, but not sure if I can get a peice of wood in there that is drilled out enough to get this long tang in. I guess I could, but it would have to be slathered with epoxy so it wouldn't shift and to take up the rest of the interior space.

I am not much for subtle. I would probably tossed the whole hollow handle and start over with a fresh piece of bar stock. Use two flat steel bars about 5/16" thick; cut them to shape, cut a slot inside to tightly fit the tang. Then you can pin/bolt/weld the handle parts together; and, grind the final shape until you are happy with it. The strength part comes from having a correct fit between the handle and tang. Epoxy/laha/whatever glue is not worth the effort; and, will always prove a weak point. If you are going to fix it, then you may as well do it right; else, you will likely be doing it again soon

n2s

 

[Svashtar]

I am not much for subtle. I would probably tossed the whole hollow handle and start over with a fresh piece of bar stock. Use two flat steel bars about 5/16" thick; cut them to shape, cut a slot inside to tightly fit the tang. Then you can pin/bolt/weld the handle parts together; and, grind the final shape until you are happy with it. The strength part comes from having a correct fit between the handle and tang. Epoxy/laha/whatever glue is not worth the effort; and, will always prove a weak point. If you are going to fix it, then you may as well do it right; else, you will likely be doing it again soon

n2s

Good points. The tang _does_ fit tightly at the widest part to the front of the handle, but it is unsupported the rest of the way back of the handle keeper.

I am loathe to just discard this handle. It is very strong and very comfortable, and a lot of thought went into the design. I'll come up with something with all your help.

Norm

 

[Kismet]

:thumbup: hardtack

 

[spiraltwista]

mmmmm the problem was as I said then. {Dont you just hate a know it all. }


Lots of good solutions offered. Anything that gives full support to the tang will work.


Spiral

 

[kronckew]

... Anything that gives full support to the tang will work...

i have a couple of my ex's underwire bra's gathering dust somewhere that you can have...

on a more practical note, the (i can't tell from photo) apparent square transition between the blade and the tang will act as a stress point and should be radiused a bit, possibly this wil also extend the tang enough to allow it to be re-peened, or even threaded for an acorn nut to ease any future handle work.

 

[Ad Astra]

I'm going to school on all this... thanks, Norm.

The way they're put together the blade would work loose fairly easily; then that movement let the hidden stress point bust Steve's blade.

Which doesn't mean the other blades (mine) are any more prone to breakage than any other HI forged blade... the MM's are just prone to coming apart.

Wish I had your skills, Norm.


Mike

 

[eswartz]

I was thinking about it last night and looking at these pictures, I think the main problem is the bolster. It does not seem to be bolstering anything.

A normal knife would bolster the top of the wood handle to the blade juncture.

But this one just seems stuck on and filled with laha, providing no support to the handle, other than the brazoning to the upper ring.

Is it even needed in this application? Maybe it should have been left off.

(Just some armchair knivemaking from me. )

Eric.