Museum Replicas -- any good?

Joined
Oct 12, 1998
Messages
2,036
I know alot of their stuff is Wndlass and I haven't heard much good about them, but are some of theif offerings of decent quality?

Thanks!

Clay

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Clay Fleischer
clay_fleischer@yahoo.com
AKTI Member A000847
 
Mileage may vary in terms of quality control.

I had purchased a sword from them last fall and it has been quite good. The tang was not a rat-tail and it took several hours of use before the hilt loosened enough to un-screw the pommel. The heat treat seems also more than fair, keeps an edge and flexes well.

MRL has a very good return policy so the adventurous might well take the gamble.

The sword I bought has been discontinued but there are reports of some quality improvement in their offerings.

Overall, their offerings are better replicas than CAS or Kris Cutlery, you just take the chance of getting a poor example the first time.

Just my two cents worth, I like my Ren Thrusting Sword quite a bit.

Cheers
 
*Jumping up and down pulling my hair out*

AHHHHHG!!!!!

Okay guys, Listen up!
smile.gif

One more time,
MRL, Windlass and the Hanwei rapiers are NOT wall hangers!

No, they're not Del Tins, and no, they're not Darkwood Armories, but my Hanwei Pappenheimer has lasted me well over a YEAR so far and is still going strong. My Windlass swept hilts, same.

A couple months ago, the tang broke, but I took it to the local marine repair shop and the guy welded it back up in 20 minutes for me and charged me 10 bucks to do it.
Other than that, it's performed perfectly!

Now, I'll admit, they have a life expectancy of about 1000 duels. (Yes, I have enough data to come up with a valid statistic)

You have to realize though, that each week, we must de-burr the blade edges by filing and sanding them smooth again for safety purposes. Doing a draw cut with a burr on your blade is a great way to cut someone LDC!
(Long, Deep, and Continuous)

Because of this de-burring, the blade gets a little thinner each week, creating a built in "self-destruct" point.

Eventually, the blade gets too thin, you parry a hard blow, and SNAP! You have two pieces of blade and you lose your duel.
Fortunately, there is a source for both replacement Windlass and Hanwei blades, running 55 to 65 bucks, depending.

I really don't see what more anyone could reasonably ASK of a sword!

As far as return policies go, I'd almost bet that if I sent back the broken blade I'd used for better than a year, MRL would replace it. Truth is though, I know I've gotten my money's worth out of it and don't mind paying for the replacement.

Now I know a lot of you are going to say, "Well that's just your experience." but there are THIRTY GUYS in my club that will tell you the very same thing!

There are three Deltin blades in the group, one Darkwood sword, one standard main gauche, and my Swordbreaker. Yes, the Deltins DO have a better temper, but they don't last any longer.

If you want to fight live steel, you're going to HAVE to de-burr. If you don't de-burr, I wouldn't duel against you, and I'm the guy in the club that's famous for taking on ANY opponent because I'm a little NUTS that way. (At least that's what the rest of the guys say, but they could be wrong!)
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I can't say much about the rest of the inventory, as I don't bother with anything but rapiers and gauches, but on those items, you will get your money's worth AND THEN SOME!

If it breaks on you before you think it should, send it back, any of the reputable dealers will replace it, NQA.

Reputable dealers are,
MRL
By the Sword
Chivalry Sports
and a couple others I can't think of at the moment.
(For Del tin stuff, I highly recommend Darkwood and Christian Fletcher.)

(Lunatic rant mode off)
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Oh yeah, two more things, The Deltin SwordBreaker is kind of hard to come by, but it REALLY works. It doesn't "break" swords but I can occasionally snatch a sword out of an opponent's hand so fast he literally doesn't know it's happened until after I've "killed" him!
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Also, save those broken blades, they're GREAT for making extra long main gauches!


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Tráceme no sin la razón, envoltura mi no sin honor
Usual Suspect
 
Okay, Ken, but lets just look at their Mainz style gladius ans compare it to the Mainz style gladius from Depeeka, as sold by By the Sword or Valentine Armories. They want at least $35 more for a sword that bears little resemblance to the historical Mainz style gladius. The MRL model has a squared off blade that is more on the lines of the Fulham gladius than the Mainz and the hilt is virtually the same as is on the Ponpeii style. In the historical examples that we have, the hilts are very different, the guard being much more flared and the ball on the pommel being egg shaped rather than ball shaped, as on the Pompeii and the MRL model. Further, the MRL moder has a scabbard that is virtually the same as that on their Pompeii, having only partial channels on the sides, while the real Mainz style scabbards that have been found have full chnnels all of the way down the sides. But I think that the most horrendous error that MRL makes is that they make the blade to squared off, the Mainz style blade should start wide at the beginning, where it leaves the hilt, then taper to perhaps 1.5" and then swell to 2" or more in a wasp-waisted look before tapering to a very long and sharp point. It is, all in all, a very graceful and deadly appearing blade that MRL totally screws up.

THe also try to sell a plywood figure 8 shield to go with their classic Greek Corinthian helmet. This is flat dishonest. The Corinthian helmet was usewd driing the Classic Greek period when the Greek hoplite would have been using the dished, circular hoplon of the phalanx. The figure 8 shields were huge body shields made of bull hide stretched over a frame and were used during teh Mycenaean era, back around 1400 BCE. I have never run into a plywood type figure 8 Greek shield. If their Medieval items are no better than their Roman and Greek items, then I can see no reason to patronize them.

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Walk in the Light,
Hugh Fuller
 
Hi Hugh!
Well, historical accuracy is probably an entirely different subject, pertinant to people like you and I, (you know, obsessive compulsives!
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) but do all those inaccuracies add up to a "wall hanger" not suitable for use?

No, I wouldn't want something that far off accuracy wise, I've put a lot of effort into my gear, ensuring that every aspect of it is "correct" to the period (1634 AD) so I'm not going to "blow it" by carrying a cup hilt rapier, that wasn't invented for another 10 years!
My doublet and breeches are made of Coure' du Roi, (corduroy) in a primitive warp and weft, that is perfectly accurate to the time. (Corduroy was invented in 1632) So yes, historical accuracy is VERY important to me.
However, if someone's looking for a sword and that's all they want, is a sword to swing while they chase the squirrels, or if they want to get into some sort of live steel, then historical accuracy is suddenly not quite so important.
FWIW, I agree, the MRL Mainz is just UGLY and lacks all the elegance of the true Mianz.
Obviously, if you can get better for cheaper, DO it! (Doesn't happen often, but always jump on it when it DOES happen.)

One question though, and please bear in mind that Roman equipment is far from my forte' (guess that would make it my foible?)
biggrin.gif

I know the Mainz, I know the Pompeii, but what is the Fulham gladius?
I don't know that I've seen one of those!

As far as the types of shields and such, never EVER trust the catalogs.
I have a mantra that I repeat to some of the guys, "Internet Catalogs are not provenance." I then tell them to repeat it to themselves 10,000 times a day or until they "get it." LOL (wouldn't it be funny if they LISTENED to me?)



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Tráceme no sin la razón, envoltura mi no sin honor
Usual Suspect
 
Tang Snapping?!?!?!?
I still maintain that MRL (Windlass) and many of the Chen/Hanwei offerings are wall-hangers.

My safety and the safety of those I train with are more important to me than saving a few bucks.

I see you engage in "duels"...I assume you take part in stagecraft-type sword play.
That's fine...but to put yourself and those you train with at risk by using wall-hanger quality "sword-like obejcts" raises some alarms...Do yourself a favor and stick to Deltin, or blunted Kris Cutlery...The quality factor can't be ignored.

Also, using a re-welded tang?!?!?!?
no friggen way!!!! Has the welder stressrelieved or annealed the post-weld tang? (doubtful).
Please visit www.swordforums.com or www.netsword.com. Both are very valuable sources for your interests!

Man, whatever you do, please be careful. I'd hate for you or your training partners to sustain such avoidable injuries!

Take care,
Caveat Gladiator
Redleg Out.

[This message has been edited by Redleg (edited 04-24-2001).]
 
I can't speak the Chen products but I wouldn't even put MRL on the wall. Ken is just about the only person that I have seen who has a good thing to say about MRL since they were taken over by Windlass. About the wallhanging part. My understanding is that MRL's fit and finish are also terrible. Couple that with a poor heat treatment and you don't have a sword, you have a disaster.
 
Ken, the Fulham gladius appears to be an interim stage between the Mainz and the Pompeii styles. There have been but few found. Look here http://members.aol.com/gijchar/roman.htm for examples. Drool all you like, as he does gorgeous work. I especially love his augmented Mainz style gladius, look at teh carving on the guard and on the pommel. Look also at the scabbard for it, it is a copy of the Sword of Tiberius scabbard, and it is a work of art in its own right. I understand that Albion Armourers is also making all three gladii now, as well, in their Albion Mark series, with blades by Angus Trim. http://www.albionarmorers.com/markmain.htm These are less expensive, but of at least equal quality to the Lonely Pine models, Gus Trim has a very excellent reputation for his blades, and I understand that Albion has started to make scabbards again.

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Walk in the Light,
Hugh Fuller
 
Well, I got my sword from MRL. I am pretty happy with it. It is better than most CAS/Marto swords, but obviously no Del Tin. Fit and finish are good but not spectacular. You can see it here: http://store.museumreplicas.com/cgi-bin/www11650.storefront

All in all I think it is pretty good for $125. Very heavy though. So, in short, I like it, but I wouldn't pay mroe than I did for it.

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Clay Fleischer
clay_fleischer@yahoo.com
AKTI Member A000847
 
Well, I'd have to agree with you there. Of course just about any other sword I can think of is better then a Marto.
 
assuming the fit and finish is good, then I think that $125 for it was a pretty good deal.

I'm not promoting MRL...But for the money, not too bad!
 
Hi Redleg,
I know you meant no offense by your comments, but I'll admit a few of them chaff a bit. No harm no foul though, and if my response is a bit "stiff" it will at least be courteous.

To answer your questions,
YES! The MIG weld was stress relieved and annealed, I know because I stood there and watched him do the work and I have full confidence that the weld is at least as strong as the original unbroken steel was.
I have been in the past, an aircraft mechanic, industrial welder, blacksmith, and I am a well trained gunsmith. I'm qualified to know if two pieces of metal are well joined or not.

No, I do NOT engage in "stagecraft-type swordplay."
What we do is a Martial Art, ala' John Clements etc. It is not choreographed, nor are the blows offset. (We thrust "bent wrist" for safety purposes, all else is authentic technique.)

I think that most people have some rather unrealistic ideas of what a rapier (or any other sword) can stand up to over a period of severe use.
You seem surprised that a rat-tail tang will eventually break, but consider the force and sheer footpound weight of impact.
How many blows are struck in a duel?
Anywhere from one to one hundred, who knows? There is no "average" duel.

I'm convinced that 99% of the people who buy a sword never use it for more than a wall hanger, or to take out in the yard and swish through the air. (Or try to chop and oak in half with a rapier!) That's their business and I'm not disparaging them, I merely point out that these people cannot know much about how well put together their sword actually is. (The fact is, the number of people who buy a sword and actually use it as it was intended, is pretty much statistically insignificant.) If these people aren't USING their swords, obviously a rat tail tang will hold up quite well.

However, with hard and frequent use, eventually the stresses will take their toll and repairs will be required whether the blade be a CAS or Deltin.

Remember, that the surviving (period) examples we see today are not the "beaters" that were used to practice and learn with. They are instead, the "dress" or "presentation" blades that were carried as ornamentation and may have seen 5,10, 20 duels, (or none!) throughout it's actual carrying life.

I have fought more than 20 duels in one DAY with CAS and Windlass blades! The fact that these "wall hangers" last as well and as long as they do is impressive indeed, and "puts the lie" to the idea that they are "wall hangers."

I've SEEN wall hangers and would never THINK of even swinging one through the air, let alone fighting that blade. (The Marto Katanas come to mind.)

"My safety and the safety of those I train with are more important to me than saving a few bucks."

I am trying to bear in mind that you do not know me and have no way of knowing the level of my knowledge or training and so I shouldn't take offense, but I have to admit, I find your tone and your assumptions a bit offensive anyway.

The safety of my opponent is more important to me than my own. I will do nothing to risk his safety and have on MANY occasions passed up the chance of taking the point because I thought it MIGHT be a chancy manuver, and rather than take the risk, I'll pass the point.

In over two years of dueling, with as many as 90 duels taking place each week, (30 members, 3 duels each, not counting warm ups and practice!) the most serious injury we've had is a knuckle cut that required two band-aids. (Hand cuts will happen, even with gauntlets such as we always wear.)

Safety is EVERYONE'S primary concern, and honor lies in winning with the gentle touch rather than the wild slash or hack.

"To touch without being touched, to win without injury."

These are our goals and I believe that any of the more experienced members of our group could hold their own against any live steel swordsman in North America. They may not win, but they will not leave the field embarassed or humiliated.

Safety comes from control, control comes from mastery, mastery comes from training.

So in closing Redleg, first let me again apologize if you perceive any "stiffness" in my answer to you, and let me assure you that I'll get over it, you don't owe me an apology, we're on good terms.
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I suppose it's much like someone going to a new Dojo for the first time, even though they may be a master, they must "show their bona fides" before anyone will take them seriously. You can't blame that master for being a bit miffed when everyone assumes he's a white belt though.


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Tráceme no sin la razón, envoltura mi no sin honor
Usual Suspect
 
Nah, like you said, no harm, no foul...We are all big-boys( and Girls) here.
However, I maintain my position on MRL.
Thanks for the reply and be careful out there!
-Redleg Out
(BTW, Still waiting with baited breath, for my KC Gladius. It hasn't cleared customs yet).

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