I picked up a 77OT the other day, more or less just because. And maybe because it's what a cool old guy I sometimes hunt with uses. Anyway, what's the idea behind the two identical blades? I assume you could put different edges on them, but I'm not sure how that would be an advantage, especially for cleaning small game, since it's labeled Small Gamer on the box. Also, the main blade says Improved Muskrat. What's improved about the 77OT?
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Muskrat Question
- Thread starter GRMike
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textoothpk
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Hiya Mike.. Nice to see you here. The Muskrat pattern was developed for skinning, well, muskrats and other small furbearing mammals. The hair on those critters is very dense, sleek, so a couple of nice, very sharp, clip (mostly california clip) blades were handy, always having a sharp one.
Probably derived from the stockman pattern in the early 1900s. Usually, if you hold a Muskrat right next to a Stockman by the same company, you can see that the serpentine frame is identical.
I cannot comment on your particular Schrade and the 'improved' part of your question, as I am not familiar with that model. There are others here who are. I have noted other companies calling some of their 'Rats 'improved' and usually that entails one blade slightly different from the other (of course you said the blades on yours are the same). Maybe the most well-known "improved muskrat' was the Case Hawbaker Special.
I'm sure one of our experts will help you out on the 77OT.
Regards,
Phil
Probably derived from the stockman pattern in the early 1900s. Usually, if you hold a Muskrat right next to a Stockman by the same company, you can see that the serpentine frame is identical.
I cannot comment on your particular Schrade and the 'improved' part of your question, as I am not familiar with that model. There are others here who are. I have noted other companies calling some of their 'Rats 'improved' and usually that entails one blade slightly different from the other (of course you said the blades on yours are the same). Maybe the most well-known "improved muskrat' was the Case Hawbaker Special.
I'm sure one of our experts will help you out on the 77OT.
Regards,
Phil
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Welcome GRMike.
The story I have heard, is that the thin profile Muskrat/Turkish/California blade was designed for skinning smallish furry critters (Muskrats, maybe
). Since there were usually several at a time to be skinned, two identical blades allowed for the same feel/technique to skin them without having to sharpen the knife in the field. Not saying it's gospel now, just what I heard somewhere along the line. 
As for "Improved"..........Improved marketing maybe?
LT, Luis, Phil, Larry, Steve, Glenn, anybody? Roll has been sounded.
Bill
Oops.....Second guy saying basically the same thing sounds lame. Sorry.
The story I have heard, is that the thin profile Muskrat/Turkish/California blade was designed for skinning smallish furry critters (Muskrats, maybe
). Since there were usually several at a time to be skinned, two identical blades allowed for the same feel/technique to skin them without having to sharpen the knife in the field. Not saying it's gospel now, just what I heard somewhere along the line. As for "Improved"..........Improved marketing maybe?
LT, Luis, Phil, Larry, Steve, Glenn, anybody? Roll has been sounded.
Bill
Oops.....Second guy saying basically the same thing sounds lame. Sorry.
textoothpk
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Hey Bill... Two of us agreeing just makes us both look brilliant! I think you are right about the blade, though... more of a Turkish clip on these.
Here's a pic of the knife in question.
I stopped by the Schrade site... lusted for a moment over the new Cigar Box 77. Beautiful.
Phil
Here's a pic of the knife in question.
I stopped by the Schrade site... lusted for a moment over the new Cigar Box 77. Beautiful.
Phil
Tex, thanks for the pic, that's my new knife. Maybe the blades aren't EXACTLY the same--the nail nicks are slightly different at least--but for practical purposes I'd say they are. Those Turkish clip blades look like they'd be good for skinning.
El Lobo, your explanation about a blade and a spare with the same geometry for doing up a mess of 'rats makes as much sense as any. I never did any trapping, but I know muskrats tend to be reasonably abundant when you find them.
I doubt I'll be stretching the knife to its limits, the way I shoot, but I sometimes get three or four squirrels in a morning. I'm looking forward to seeing how 77OT performs.
El Lobo, your explanation about a blade and a spare with the same geometry for doing up a mess of 'rats makes as much sense as any. I never did any trapping, but I know muskrats tend to be reasonably abundant when you find them.
I doubt I'll be stretching the knife to its limits, the way I shoot, but I sometimes get three or four squirrels in a morning. I'm looking forward to seeing how 77OT performs.
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Anyone have an example/picture of a muskrat knife before the improved version that can be posted?
I specified "knife" knowing the 1st person in here with a picture of a real muskrat would post that. I know I would. Or maybe one of Deputy Dawg's sidekick Musky.
Ok, gotta go get my meds.
TTYL
I specified "knife" knowing the 1st person in here with a picture of a real muskrat would post that. I know I would. Or maybe one of Deputy Dawg's sidekick Musky.
Ok, gotta go get my meds.
TTYL
GRMike said:
Diferent blades/edges for different functions is a good idea, that´s why I carry a stockman, and I believe that´s why some Muskrats have one clip and one sheepfoot (or one clip and one spear).
I agree with Phil and Bill in the idea of identical blades with identical edges, so that when one goes dull you can use the other one, ask your hunter friend why he uses a Muskrat and he´ll probably tell you that. So it is with the Muskrat and with other knives like the four bladed Congress with two pens and two sheepfoots (or should it be sheepfeet?, Gosh, English is a funny language), a similar idea is with those cheap cutters where you snap off the end of the blade when it goes dull and you get a fresh sharp edge.
Names can be confusing, you could say that a Muskrat (or a Muskrat Trapper) is a double ended jack with two blades of equal length, usually both California clips, usually built on a serpentine frame. "Improved" seems to me like just a marketing thing as Bill mentions, probably some maker decided to call one model "Improved" and the name stuck. Of course if anybody knows where and how the "Improved" thing started I would be interested.
Thanks, gents. I'll definitely check with my friend, Don Luis. I've only had a few glimpses of his knife in action. It looks like either a 77OT or an 8OT, hard to tell when it's in his paw. He played football for Duffy Daugherty at Michigan State back in the 50s, so that will give you some idea of how big he is. He just had arm surgery but says he'll be ready to go this fall anyway. He's 66 and I wouldn't bet against him--talk about an Old Timer.
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I forgot I had one of these..... 
I have an SDU77 (according to Penny DePuy at Schrade) that is marked on the tang as..... Schrade+...USA 77UH. It has Staglon scales and a stainless and black Ducks Unlimited Shield.
I got this sometime in 2001, I think. So.... I guess they made this version in both carbon (OT) and stainless (UH). However, mine doesn't say "Improved Muskrat", so I guess it's just a plain "Ratty" type Muskrat.
Nice knife anyway. In a tin with art by Cynthie Fisher.
I don't know what this had to do with Mike's original question,
, but I was just dying to tell you guys.
Bill
I have an SDU77 (according to Penny DePuy at Schrade) that is marked on the tang as..... Schrade+...USA 77UH. It has Staglon scales and a stainless and black Ducks Unlimited Shield.
I got this sometime in 2001, I think. So.... I guess they made this version in both carbon (OT) and stainless (UH). However, mine doesn't say "Improved Muskrat", so I guess it's just a plain "Ratty" type Muskrat.
Nice knife anyway. In a tin with art by Cynthie Fisher.
I don't know what this had to do with Mike's original question,
, but I was just dying to tell you guys. Bill
textoothpk
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A note about Muskrats...
When the first French fur trappers came to Michigan, they valued muskrats for their pelt, of course, but had an idea about another use for them. As Catholics, they had to endure 'meatless' days, but the Vatican was OK with fish. So, one of their priests wrote to the Vatican, describing the animal (spending so much of it's time in the water) much to their advantage. The Vatican replied, "yep, sounds like a fish to use, go ahead and eat it on Fridays" so of course they did. And probably had a nice laugh about it, but hey, the Pope had told them it was a fish, so it was a fish!
To this day, you can get muskrat at a few places in the Detroit area. There is a big Muskrat cookoff once a year down there.
So I join Bill in highjacking GRMike's thread. But hey, I wanted to tell you guys about it!
haha
Phil
When the first French fur trappers came to Michigan, they valued muskrats for their pelt, of course, but had an idea about another use for them. As Catholics, they had to endure 'meatless' days, but the Vatican was OK with fish. So, one of their priests wrote to the Vatican, describing the animal (spending so much of it's time in the water) much to their advantage. The Vatican replied, "yep, sounds like a fish to use, go ahead and eat it on Fridays" so of course they did. And probably had a nice laugh about it, but hey, the Pope had told them it was a fish, so it was a fish!
To this day, you can get muskrat at a few places in the Detroit area. There is a big Muskrat cookoff once a year down there.
So I join Bill in highjacking GRMike's thread. But hey, I wanted to tell you guys about it!
haha
Phil
Phil, just to join in the fun, my in-laws used to live in the deep southeast corner of Michigan and once while we were down visiting they served muskrat, acquired fresh from the descendents of those French trappers, some of whom went to their church. You can indeed get muskrat in and around Monroe, MI, at certain times of the year.
It wasn't good. I later read there's a musk gland on the legs that has to be trimmed off, and I don't think that happened.
It wasn't good. I later read there's a musk gland on the legs that has to be trimmed off, and I don't think that happened.
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It took a while however I believe I can add some information on the question of the Improved muskrat name, reasons, and the history of this style of knife. Originally the blade pattern in the Muskrat was the same as, the clippoint blade, used in trapper model knives, the Muskrats were designed exactly for the reasons which have been mentioned. ( As I said the blade was used in trappers named for there designed use of skinning and cleaning animals). Muskrats took 2 of these blades and fitted them in to what is a basic stockman frame with one of the clip trapper blades at each end. Unlike the stockman it had only 2 blades not 3. This frame however is of that style. This was done so that avid woodsmen with a use for this tool would have a knife they had been requesting. Since that style of blade was preferred it allowed the maximum use of two blades in a knife that were most suited to the task. Placing the blade on either end rather than both on the same side as in a trapper pattern allowed a thinner working area and if a blade dulled allowed access to the clean other side and sharp blade to continue.
Upon further refinment of the initial knife it was found that a thinner version of this blade ( more like a turkish clip ) worked better for the intended purpose. Hense ( I like that word ), The new knives were marketed as the improved muskrat. I am attaching a picture which appeared out of the miasma ( I don't like that word ), of information that I had been searching through since the question first appeared. However I did not want to offer up the info with out the documentation. I have remarked about my system of filing things in past postings, so it took a while.
There have been other versions of the Muskrat the Hawbaker and several others while those blade patterns may vary. The opposite bladed 2 stockman handle seems to be a constant. James Cagney carried one of these knives however before he would use it he would give the warning OK YOU DIRTY RATS. This last part may or may not be true. LT
Upon further refinment of the initial knife it was found that a thinner version of this blade ( more like a turkish clip ) worked better for the intended purpose. Hense ( I like that word ), The new knives were marketed as the improved muskrat. I am attaching a picture which appeared out of the miasma ( I don't like that word ), of information that I had been searching through since the question first appeared. However I did not want to offer up the info with out the documentation. I have remarked about my system of filing things in past postings, so it took a while.
There have been other versions of the Muskrat the Hawbaker and several others while those blade patterns may vary. The opposite bladed 2 stockman handle seems to be a constant. James Cagney carried one of these knives however before he would use it he would give the warning OK YOU DIRTY RATS. This last part may or may not be true. LT
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miasma not your asthma
Ok I had to go look it up.
miasma
n 1: an unwholesome atmosphere; "the novel spun a miasma of death and decay" 2: unhealthy vapors rising from the ground or other sources; "the miasma of the marshes" or "a miasma of cigar smoke"
Sounds like you need a bunch of us to come help you clean out the place!
Ok I had to go look it up.
miasma
n 1: an unwholesome atmosphere; "the novel spun a miasma of death and decay" 2: unhealthy vapors rising from the ground or other sources; "the miasma of the marshes" or "a miasma of cigar smoke"
Sounds like you need a bunch of us to come help you clean out the place!
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That picture from the "miasma" is actually referring to CASE knives, specifically the "trapper" or "54" pattern. Between 1963 and 1967 there were two different dies used to stamp out the master blades for this pattern, the narrower one is referred to by CASE collectors as the "muskrat" blade apparently because it is narrower than the standard trapper master blade, as is the typical turkish clip blade on a muskrat pattern.
I had always thought that the "improved" really referred to the replacement of one of the turkish clip blades on a standard muskrat with the long narrow sheepfoot blade that is usually referred to as a "Hawbaker" blade after its use by the Hawbaker company.
The reality is that Schrade used the secondary long sheep blade as early as the 1930's era. Their 1936 catalog supplement shows the #S7814, with a turkish clip blade and the long sheepfoot blade, bone handles, square bolsters, and noted as having "one improved skinning blade and one slim clip blade".....the "improved skinning blade" obviously referring to the long sheepfoot blade.
The master blade on this knife is etched "IMPROVED MUSKRAT KNIFE". The same knife was noted as being offered with two slim clip blades as the #S7814 3/4 (not pictured).
Schrade later used the etching "IMPROVED MUSKRAT KNIFE" on the "standard" muskrat pattern that has two slim or turkish clip blades. In fact I think that they etched them that way up until the very end of production of the OLD TIMER version of the muskrat in recent years. I have a 1950's bone handle version with this etching (again two slim clips) and it was used on all of the delrin handled specimens that I have seen.
WHY Schrade decided to make the "IMPROVED MUSKRAT KNIFE" etching the standard for the "regular" muskrat knives is a mystery.
I had always thought that the "improved" really referred to the replacement of one of the turkish clip blades on a standard muskrat with the long narrow sheepfoot blade that is usually referred to as a "Hawbaker" blade after its use by the Hawbaker company.
The reality is that Schrade used the secondary long sheep blade as early as the 1930's era. Their 1936 catalog supplement shows the #S7814, with a turkish clip blade and the long sheepfoot blade, bone handles, square bolsters, and noted as having "one improved skinning blade and one slim clip blade".....the "improved skinning blade" obviously referring to the long sheepfoot blade.
The master blade on this knife is etched "IMPROVED MUSKRAT KNIFE". The same knife was noted as being offered with two slim clip blades as the #S7814 3/4 (not pictured).
Schrade later used the etching "IMPROVED MUSKRAT KNIFE" on the "standard" muskrat pattern that has two slim or turkish clip blades. In fact I think that they etched them that way up until the very end of production of the OLD TIMER version of the muskrat in recent years. I have a 1950's bone handle version with this etching (again two slim clips) and it was used on all of the delrin handled specimens that I have seen.
WHY Schrade decided to make the "IMPROVED MUSKRAT KNIFE" etching the standard for the "regular" muskrat knives is a mystery.
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You are quite right in that the diagram information and reference used was in regard to Case knives. ( I should have added that fact to the reference ). I believe it was in one of the Sargant books. However my contention in its use, is that the reason improved was added was to show that they had made the change as well ( or in fact already used that pattern ). In other words I feel they were competing and did so with the name change and the fact that they used 2 turkish clips ( or elongated clips ) as case was advertising that it was changing to. I believe this change in etch took place around this same time frame.
Perhapes I am wrong I certainly appreciate anything that clarifys or corrects something I write. In any event it is good to see a response which shows someone out there is reading these postings . It seems the same few people make most of the contributions. By the way I wanted you to know that I have stolen your name the other day someone asked me why I had such a passion for knives I told them I was a Knifeaholic. LT PS I gave this posting its title since I had created such a stir with one large word I wanted to see how much trouble using two would cause.
Perhapes I am wrong I certainly appreciate anything that clarifys or corrects something I write. In any event it is good to see a response which shows someone out there is reading these postings . It seems the same few people make most of the contributions. By the way I wanted you to know that I have stolen your name the other day someone asked me why I had such a passion for knives I told them I was a Knifeaholic. LT PS I gave this posting its title since I had created such a stir with one large word I wanted to see how much trouble using two would cause.