My concern with folders that lack liners

[Charlie Mike]

I've noticed a trend in custom and production folders. Some examples of this trend are Warren Thomas, Strider, Emerson to name a few. My concern is that these framelocks are being made with a non locking scale that is purely non metallic. There are also liner locking folders that are made this way, the Beretta Avenger II comes to mind. Would the strength of the pivot, stop pin, or standoffs be compromised from being attached to the scale material with the absence of a metal liner?

IMO, the ZT 0300 is a much stronger execution of the framelock where there hard use would not cause an "erosion" of the mounts of the hardware in the non locking scale.

 

[T. Erdelyi]

I own an Avenger and I wouldn't expect it to pry open a wooden box, you neglect to mention that the Avenger's scales ar very thick CF slabs, however if I needed a knife as a lightweight last ditch knife for SD, I would put my faith in the Avenger when it came to slashin', (although I would change the name to something less menacing.

Another great lightweight knife for an LD SD would be the CRKT Lrg. Fireman's M-16, a faster slasher for the money is hard to find.

 

[phatch]

Some of my favorite knives have no liners at all. AG Russell Featherlite, AL Mar Ultralight. Very rigid and plenty strong, stronger than my grip.

No, they're not prybars, but even knives with liners aren't.

Phil

 

[STR]

Man made materials like carbon fiber and G10 are more than strong enough to handle anything including a lot of prying jobs on frame locks. I've found both materials are quite rigid and strong. All both do is scratch easier and deeper but thats all I've seen. I used to feel the same way as the original poster until I began testing them.

Many 'hard use' folders are in fact made this way and experience no noticed problems from building one this way. Most all the issues you do see will be lock related in my experience. Some have told me that the carbon fiber by itself is actually stronger in many ways than the titanium is in equal thickness. I have not seen anything proving this but in my private testings using a folder for hammering it in hardwood and splitting it as well as chopping with it I saw no evidence of any problem other than premature lock wear on the titanium side in every case where the lock traveled in farther and faster.

STR

 

[Charlie Mike]

I would put my faith in the Avenger when it came to slashin'

I love my Avenger. It's just damn sexy lookin. I can't wait til can get an all Ti version from Warren.

 

[orthogonal1]

My issue would be use in sub-zero enviroment use and high-heat enviroment use.

 

[tirod3]

Most non metal materials in grips are chosen for their strength, which easily exceed the flimsy and weak thin sheet metals used for liners - especially brass. It's a given that traditional knives can be destroyed by prying. Antler scales and brass liners are very often no match for the leverage of the human body. Upgrade that to thin stainless liners and FRN - and you can't break it, period. FRN is known to be too flexible, hence the liners.

Moving to G10, or CF, and pivoting off one ti framelock scale, and a S30V blade, I doubt the average human could even break the tip off, much less damage a pivot. And most owners won't try. They know it's not really a prybar, and choose tools for their use.

The average human is actually pretty weak. We have grip strengths rated at 140 pounds at the high end, and quite often use body weight to apply pressure rather than muscle, because we know it's easier. So it's pretty hard to apply more than 300 pounds of pressure to a knife - even if you weigh that much.

Working a press brake, I do know it takes up to 80,000 pounds to bend a long piece of 7 ga in a 90* bend. That's .188 material. So maybe we give ourselves more credit than it's worth. Sure, we might be able to break knives, but not one designed for hard use, and we rarely need to risk it if something better is at hand.

 

[knarfeng]

I've noticed a trend in custom and production folders. Some examples of this trend are Warren Thomas, Strider, Emerson to name a few. My concern is that these framelocks are being made with a non locking scale that is purely non metallic. There are also liner locking folders that are made this way, the Beretta Avenger II comes to mind. Would the strength of the pivot, stop pin, or standoffs be compromised from being attached to the scale material with the absence of a metal liner?

IMO, the ZT 0300 is a much stronger execution of the framelock where there hard use would not cause an "erosion" of the mounts of the hardware in the non locking scale.

Man made materials like carbon fiber and G10 are more than strong enough to handle anything including a lot of prying jobs on frame locks. I've found both materials are quite rigid and strong. All both do is scratch easier and deeper but thats all I've seen. I used to feel the same way as the original poster until I began testing them.

Many 'hard use' folders are in fact made this way and experience no noticed problems from building one this way. Most all the issues you do see will be lock related in my experience. Some have told me that the carbon fiber by itself is actually stronger in many ways than the titanium is in equal thickness. I have not seen anything proving this but in my private testings using a folder for hammering it in hardwood and splitting it as well as chopping with it I saw no evidence of any problem other than premature lock wear on the titanium side in every case where the lock traveled in farther and faster.

STR

I agree with STR.

The original post did not mention hard use. Over the years I have used a number of FRN folders that did not have metal liners. Out of the half-dozen or so I have used, only one was too flimsy for robust use. That one had FRN that was not thick enough. If the FRN handle is designed and manufactured correctly I see no problem with unlined FRN.

 

[Lycosa]

Guys, is the Avenger still being made? I can't locate a source.