My Experiment Teaching a Down-Stay to My Dog

[Totally Judy]

I decided to take my own advice and teach Sophie, my 3+ y/o bitch Lhasa Apso the "down" command and get her into a down stay. I may be going to a dog show in May, as the Breeder whom I purchased my Sophie from will be there with the siblings and mother bitch and other half-siblings. I can no longer show her in Conformation as I had her spayed. So I decided to train her in Obedience and enter her if I go.

So at 11pm tonight, I taught Sophie the "down" command. It took her a few tries and she finally realized that her belly also has to be on the ground. She was a little slow to get into position, but it is the command I am working on, not the speed.

I placed a towel in the same spot as where I place Mongo's towel for his 30-minute down-stays. Then I put Sophie on the towel and gave her the down command. She wasn't real excited about this, as she is a very independent Drama Queen of the highest order. But she does like the teeny little cookies she was getting. So she assumed the down position. I gave her the "stay" command. It worked for about 15 seconds and then she got up and started walking away. I walked over, picked her up and gently put her back on the towel. No harsh words. Actually, no words at all.

Once she was back on the towel, I gave her the down command again. She slowly assumed the position. I then repeated the "stay" command and gave her a cookie. Again, after about 15 seconds she got up and walked away.

I repeated this about 5 times. That is all it took. I had a harness on her because she is a very petite 9 pounds, not all macho and studly like her cousin, Mongo (who is only pawn in game of Sophie's life). Sophie is petite but she is tough! She will drag Mongo around by his ear and he outweights her by twice her weight! She loves to wrestle and play-fight.

Sophie's harness had been hooked up to the lead I have attached around the post by the kitchen/living room entry during these initial "down-stay" commands. So I knew she couldn't bolt out the doggie door. She didn't even try, which surprised me.

It was probably a total of 5 minutes of teaching the down-stay command before she knew what she was supposed to do. I put her in a down-stay and I went and sat on the couch to watch the Westminster Dog Show. Sophie held her down for 30 minutes and only lifted her head high to look at me in that Royal Snobbish way she has.

Even when I got up to release her from the down-stay, she didn't budge until I gave her the release command. She was picked up and hugged and kissed and then got a CHEESE treat! Yummy. She really liked that.

So for the next 15 minutes I used cheese and the teeny dog treats to reinforce the "down" command for Sophie. Sophie was getting faster and faster going into her downs. By midnight, she was nailing the down commands. I was thrilled!

Lhasa Apsos are not known for their willingness to be obedience trained. They have other, more important things to do, such as ignore me when I am talking to them.

Whenever I was giving Sophie a down command, along with the hand signal, Mongo was right next to her and he would hit the floor in a down before I could even get half-way through my hand signal. I think Mongo has the down thingie under control!

So it does work. In one hour tonight I taught a 3+ y/o Lhasa Apso Bitch the down and stay commands, and she held a down-stay for 30 minutes after only 5 times to re-position her into the down. And after that she nailed the down commands whenever she came back into the kitchen where I was at the time. Of course there were treats involved! Lhasa Apsos are extremely treat oriented!

I have approximately 3 months to train Sophie for the Obedience Trial if I decide to enter her. I did not use any harse words or negative words, nor did I have to use physical dominance or fear dominance to teach Sophie the down-stay. She works for cookies.

I bet Sophie would go to the Dark Side. She likes cookies!

Here are photos of Mongo (black) and Sophie (gold sable).


Sophie relaxing outside

Sophie thinks she is a singer.

Sophie in her Sex and the City Evening Gown at my Boss' Wedding Reception.

Mongo before I scissored off his puppy coat.

More Mongo.

Mongo after Judy Scissorhands got him.

 

[gajinoz]

I decided to take my own advice and teach Sophie, my 3+ y/o bitch Lhasa Apso the "down" command and get her into a down stay. I may be going to a dog show in May, as the Breeder whom I purchased my Sophie from will be there with the siblings and mother bitch and other half-siblings. I can no longer show her in Conformation as I had her spayed. So I decided to train her in Obedience and enter her if I go.

I spent 15 years teaching people to train dogs. I used to trial my Shepherd. He eventually became an Australian Obedience Champion. Let me know, (PM), if you'd like some tips.

Just in case you're interested ...
http://dogsites.com.au/content/view/249/13/

 

[Totally Judy]

I spent 15 years teaching people to train dogs. I used to trial my Shepherd. He eventually became an Australian Obedience Champion. Let me know, (PM), if you'd like some tips.

Just in case you're interested ...
http://dogsites.com.au/content/view/249/13/

Awesome, gajinoz! I would welcome some tips. I took my family's GSD through Obedience Training back in the 70's, but have never trained another dog in Obedience. And obviously I have never entered a dog in an Obedience Trial before.

Sophie would be entered in Novice, of course. And I am just assuming that there will be Obedience Trials at the dog show. It is an All-Breed Show that weekend, so there should be.

Lhasa Apsos are quite intelligent. I understand that there is often a problem with training them in Obedience because they get this attitude that once they have mastered something, they don't feel they need to exhibit their skill a second time. It's sort of like, "Hey, I've already done that. If you feel you need to do it again, knock yourself out. I'm staying right here!"

I can't reply to PM's from my work computer due to the Firewall. Email would work better for me, if that is okay with you.

totallyjudy@yahoo.com

I would eventually like to get both Sophie and Dancer Obedience titled and whatever other titles are required as I think they would be be excellent Therapy Dogs.

Let's do some training, gajinoz!

 

[DaveH]

Awesome work.

Our dogs are little stubborn but once they figure out what you want they'll do their darndest to do it for you when you ask them. However similarly, they are smart enough to get board doing the same thing over and over, so you have to mix things up and heap on the praise.

To get a TDI (Therapy dogs something or other) certificate I think all you have to do is have a canine good citizen cert, do some basic obediance, and past teh therapy test, which is no fear of crutches, walkers, wheel chairs, etc. Just a little work and it is pretty much cake.

 

[Totally Judy]

One of the biggest challenges I am going to have with both Mongo and Sophie is exposing them to those medical pieces of equipment and different environments.

Since I live so danged rurally (and I love it!), my dogs don't get exposed to a lot of different environments and experiences. They go to town once a month for grooming and interaction with any dogs and humans that come into the grooming shop, but that is about it.

To get Sophie ready to go the the Lhasa Apso National Specialty in 2007, I started taking her to Starbucks. I would sit outside in the patio area with a little container of tastey treats.

Sophie was maybe 9 months old when I started taking her to Starbucks on the weekends. She was skittish at first. Then she started liking that people she didn't know (with "Mom's" approval, of course) would offer her a tastey treat and pet her. Many people had their dogs there also, and with it being the only Starbucks for about 30 miles, it was pretty busy.

Kids loved her and would sit and pet her. Then Sophie decided all of these people might not be so scarey. And maybe, just maybe, they had treats at their tables, too! So she ventured away from my table and started approaching people on her own, but tentatively. Being the cutey that she is, most people would greet her.

Once, a larger truck going through the drive-thru backfired. I expected her to freak out and scurry away from the noise. Nope. She sure surprised the heck out of me when she began to BARK at the truck. That's my little girl! She never even flinched.

I'll just have to do more of the same and in many, many different environments to get both Mongo and Sophie prepared to be Therapy Dogs.

Here are some photos of Sophie on her first outing to Starbucks:

Watching the people

One of the kids who played with her

Same kid

Another kid

More watching, but pretty relaxed

 

[DaveH]

We live in an urban area that's congested AND has alot of tourists, a few crazy people and some drunks and panhandlers wandering around. Great for socialization. Keep up the socialization.

Also if you are really hardcore you can rent medical equipment for a week or two and push/drive it around the house. One of the TDI tasks we had to learn was front paws on an object, since we taught our dogs the "touch" command with clicker training, new object introduction and familiarity was pretty easy to do.

 

[InfidelShootist]

I'm a dog trainer as well,looooog time.
One trick is to use the command "Place" for what you're teaching which is "Down Stay" on their bed/towel/etc.

That way when you command "down" in a high distraction environment the dog is not confused without the towel.Another difference is when at home and the "place" command is given the dog will seek out it's place and down stay there and not just drop where it's standing.

Sounds like you're doing a good job training.Positive reenforcement works well to teach a command.
After a command is taught to a high level which for place and down stay would be for long periods out of your line of sight and under distraction which is taught the same way you've been doing it with consistency and positive reenforcement you then "Proof" the dog which makes sure the dog understands disobeying has negative consequences.With a lap-dog type dog it requires very minor negative reenforcement but that negative reenforcement teaches a valuable lesson.Actions have consequences.Some dogs will figure out being bribed for cookies is nice and will listen when they feel like a cookie but at other times will not obey.Pack leaders don't need cookies or bribes for the other pack members to listen EVERY time without hesitation.
Why is that level of training necessary? If your dog is headed for traffic either chasing a cat or running away afraid of say a lawn mower you need him to obey DOWN STAY right away.
His life depends on it.Proper training will also develop self discipline in the dog and increased self confidence.It also develops the correct pack rank.

 

[Totally Judy]

We live in an urban area that's congested AND has alot of tourists, a few crazy people and some drunks and panhandlers wandering around. Great for socialization. Keep up the socialization.

Also if you are really hardcore you can rent medical equipment for a week or two and push/drive it around the house. One of the TDI tasks we had to learn was front paws on an object, since we taught our dogs the "touch" command with clicker training, new object introduction and familiarity was pretty easy to do.

I was reading up on the TDI requirements on the AKC website today. I think I am going to find me a walker, crutches, and a wheelchair that I can keep here at the house. I might even have my grandma's old walker in the storage shed.

I have one of the touch clickers with the little ball on the end. A friend told me that was a good clicker to use. Unfortunately, being the procrastinator that I am, I have yet to learn to use it. sigh.

The one good thing is that Mongo is smarter than the average bear and he learns very quickly. Sophie, on the other hand, is a true Lhasa Apso, with LOTS of Lhasatude. But she IS a female, and the one thing that will get her attention in a hot second is: "Sophie is such a PRETTY girl! You are sooo beautiful. EAT." Gobble gobble gobble. She is almost as compliment driven as she is food driven. Sometimes she will wait to eat dinner until after I have told her how beautiful she is. Sheesh. She definitely has the show ring attitude ever single the National Speciality in 2007. She struts her little body around the yard like she was in the ring - lots of reach and drive with her head held up and her tail flying high over her back.

I'll need to learn more about the touch command. Thanks for the heads up on that, Dave.

 

[Totally Judy]

I'm a dog trainer as well,looooog time.
One trick is to use the command "Place" for what you're teaching which is "Down Stay" on their bed/towel/etc.

That way when you command "down" in a high distraction environment the dog is not confused without the towel.Another difference is when at home and the "place" command is given the dog will seek out it's place and down stay there and not just drop where it's standing.

Sounds like you're doing a good job training.Positive reenforcement works well to teach a command.
After a command is taught to a high level which for place and down stay would be for long periods out of your line of sight and under distraction which is taught the same way you've been doing it with consistency and positive reenforcement you then "Proof" the dog which makes sure the dog understands disobeying has negative consequences.With a lap-dog type dog it requires very minor negative reenforcement but that negative reenforcement teaches a valuable lesson.Actions have consequences.Some dogs will figure out being bribed for cookies is nice and will listen when they feel like a cookie but at other times will not obey.Pack leaders don't need cookies or bribes for the other pack members to listen EVERY time without hesitation.
Why is that level of training necessary? If your dog is headed for traffic either chasing a cat or running away afraid of say a lawn mower you need him to obey DOWN STAY right away.
His life depends on it.Proper training will also develop self discipline in the dog and increased self confidence.It also develops the correct pack rank.

Wow. Thanks for the "place" suggestion. I like that a lot. I was aware that a DOWN STAY can save a dog's life in an emergency situation. Mongo will run towards me and if I give him the DOWN command, he drops on a dime. He has had some very intense down-stay training for the past several months.

I have to work with him on a Sit, because when I give the other dogs a Sit command, Mongo goes into a down. It is my own fault. When I got him at 6 months old, he was a chow hound - he was constantly starved - couldn't eat enough. And he would inhale his kibble in about 3 nano-seconds. But he also wanted everyone else's food or treats. Everyone has his/her assigned food dish in a different corner of the kitchen and they know their feeding spot.

I increased Mongo's portions, after discussing it with his breeder as I didn't want to mess him up. I consulted her on any major changes in the early months. I started having Mongo assume a down-stay while I put the food in everyone's dish, including his. And everyone else could start eating, but Mongo had to learn patience. Sometimes I would make him wait 5 or more minutes before releasing him to eat. Now all I have to do at meal time is stop, look at him, and he drops into a down. He isn't worried, because he can see the food in his dish and he knows that no other dog is allowed near his dish. But he slips from a Sit into a Down all the time.

I'll need some help figuring out how to keep him in a Sit.

The reason I started using the towel was just for comfort. It doesn't really matter. But Place would be a good command. I'll have to wait a little bit for that, as I have removed all beds, blankets, towels, etc. from the floors in the kitchen and living room. Mongo will be 3 y/o in May, and he wants to be the canine pack Alpha soooo badly. So I have one true canine pack Alpha, and a wannabe canine pack Alpha, and then another male who just wants to get along, but he won't take any crap from Mongo and he will tag team with the canine pack Alpha to keep Mongo in his place. As a result, Mongo and the boys decided marking was called for. And one thing they loved to mark was any dog bed or blanket or towel that any of them might want to lay on. Now all of their beds, etc. are outside. I have four 200 crates in the kitchen. If they want a place to lay down, they can go into a crate - which they all will do at some time during the day or evening.

Everybody got banned from the entire house except for the kitchen for a month or so. Mongo still isn't allowed in the bedroom, and he and DJ, the canine pack Alpha, decided that marking their territory on MY BED was a good thing. If I were a negative physical Alpha and trainer, they both would have been slammed against the wall. I understood the why and the what, so I removed them from MY BED. Nobody sleeps on the Alpha's bed any longer.

Lhasas are pretty notorious for not listening, or convenient listening anyway. Lhasas aren't truly lap dogs like the Toy Breeds. They are watch dogs and their job was to guard the Tibetan Temple where the Dalai Lama and the Monks were. They were bred for their very keen hearing and they will bark when they hear the smallest unusual sound - anything that is different. I have observed several of my Lhasas over the past 22 years bolt from a snoring deep sleep and race out the doggie door to bark at some intruder they have heard within 1/2 mile or so of the house. Nobody is gonna sneak up on me! I used to have a Military Macaw. She would climb to the very top of the large Mulberry Tree in the yard and stand guard. If she saw a dog or human walking across or towards our 2-1/2 acres, she would sound a very specific yell that my Lhasas knew meant someone was approaching. She could see for quite a long distance and she and the Lhasas made quite a good watch bird/dog team. My dogs were out the doggie door and at the fence, searching for the intruder that they knew was somewhere in the desert brush.

Mongo is pretty funny, though. If I see that someone has marked in the kitchen, I just ask outloud, "Who peed on my floor? Nobody pees on my floor." Mongo is out the doggie door before I can finish the first sentence. I have been using vinegar to remove the urine odors per the advice of the breeder. Since I started using the vinegar, the markings have gone done by about 80%.

Lhasa Apsos don't take well to negative reinforcement. They are highly intelligent and will often pout or ignore me if they are verbally reprimanded for doing something they shouldn't have been doing.

Thanks for all of your input. I need lots and lots of help. I can follow instructions and implement training, but I don't always know exactly how to do the more advanced stuff.

 

[Totally Judy]

To get a TDI (Therapy dogs something or other) certificate I think all you have to do is have a canine good citizen cert, do some basic obediance, and past teh therapy test, which is no fear of crutches, walkers, wheel chairs, etc. Just a little work and it is pretty much cake.

Living in the rural desert, there really is just about no formal obedience, CGC, or agility training within 50 or more miles. Most of the dog clubs in my area haven't hosted an obedience trial in the past 10-15 years! Pretty sad.

One of the local town's Park and Rec offers an Obedience class, but it is $100for maybe 5 lessons. And that is the basic heel, sit, stay, down, come. Heck, I can do those and save the $100.

Even living rurally, there are probably 4-5 breeder/owner/handlers who do conformation and they live within 1/2 mile of me. I know I could get them to work with me on distractions, etc. Even the dogs they are showing in conformation need practice being around other dogs and dealing with distractions, so we can help each other.

I did find out that there are 2 CGC Evaluators who are located in the city where I work - even out here in the middle of nowhere. Okay, I exaggerate. It's NOT the middle of nowhere, but you can see it from here. I emailed them to see if they know of any CGC training locally. Maybe they even teach classes. It never hurts to ask.

 

[InfidelShootist]

Wow. Thanks for the "place" suggestion. I like that a lot. I was aware that a DOWN STAY can save a dog's life in an emergency situation. Mongo will run towards me and if I give him the DOWN command, he drops on a dime. He has had some very intense down-stay training for the past several months.

I have to work with him on a Sit, because when I give the other dogs a Sit command, Mongo goes into a down. It is my own fault. When I got him at 6 months old, he was a chow hound - he was constantly starved - couldn't eat enough. And he would inhale his kibble in about 3 nano-seconds. But he also wanted everyone else's food or treats. Everyone has his/her assigned food dish in a different corner of the kitchen and they know their feeding spot.

I increased Mongo's portions, after discussing it with his breeder as I didn't want to mess him up. I consulted her on any major changes in the early months. I started having Mongo assume a down-stay while I put the food in everyone's dish, including his. And everyone else could start eating, but Mongo had to learn patience. Sometimes I would make him wait 5 or more minutes before releasing him to eat. Now all I have to do at meal time is stop, look at him, and he drops into a down. He isn't worried, because he can see the food in his dish and he knows that no other dog is allowed near his dish. But he slips from a Sit into a Down all the time.

I'll need some help figuring out how to keep him in a Sit.

The reason I started using the towel was just for comfort. It doesn't really matter. But Place would be a good command. I'll have to wait a little bit for that, as I have removed all beds, blankets, towels, etc. from the floors in the kitchen and living room. Mongo will be 3 y/o in May, and he wants to be the canine pack Alpha soooo badly. So I have one true canine pack Alpha, and a wannabe canine pack Alpha, and then another male who just wants to get along, but he won't take any crap from Mongo and he will tag team with the canine pack Alpha to keep Mongo in his place. As a result, Mongo and the boys decided marking was called for. And one thing they loved to mark was any dog bed or blanket or towel that any of them might want to lay on. Now all of their beds, etc. are outside. I have four 200 crates in the kitchen. If they want a place to lay down, they can go into a crate - which they all will do at some time during the day or evening.

Everybody got banned from the entire house except for the kitchen for a month or so. Mongo still isn't allowed in the bedroom, and he and DJ, the canine pack Alpha, decided that marking their territory on MY BED was a good thing. If I were a negative physical Alpha and trainer, they both would have been slammed against the wall. I understood the why and the what, so I removed them from MY BED. Nobody sleeps on the Alpha's bed any longer.

Lhasas are pretty notorious for not listening, or convenient listening anyway. Lhasas aren't truly lap dogs like the Toy Breeds. They are watch dogs and their job was to guard the Tibetan Temple where the Dalai Lama and the Monks were. They were bred for their very keen hearing and they will bark when they hear the smallest unusual sound - anything that is different. I have observed several of my Lhasas over the past 22 years bolt from a snoring deep sleep and race out the doggie door to bark at some intruder they have heard within 1/2 mile or so of the house. Nobody is gonna sneak up on me! I used to have a Military Macaw. She would climb to the very top of the large Mulberry Tree in the yard and stand guard. If she saw a dog or human walking across or towards our 2-1/2 acres, she would sound a very specific yell that my Lhasas knew meant someone was approaching. She could see for quite a long distance and she and the Lhasas made quite a good watch bird/dog team. My dogs were out the doggie door and at the fence, searching for the intruder that they knew was somewhere in the desert brush.

Mongo is pretty funny, though. If I see that someone has marked in the kitchen, I just ask outloud, "Who peed on my floor? Nobody pees on my floor." Mongo is out the doggie door before I can finish the first sentence. I have been using vinegar to remove the urine odors per the advice of the breeder. Since I started using the vinegar, the markings have gone done by about 80%.

Lhasa Apsos don't take well to negative reinforcement. They are highly intelligent and will often pout or ignore me if they are verbally reprimanded for doing something they shouldn't have been doing.

Thanks for all of your input. I need lots and lots of help. I can follow instructions and implement training, but I don't always know exactly how to do the more advanced stuff.

There can only be one alpha in a pack and it should be you.
Other commands that are useful. Sit,STAND and down.You teach it on a table and can control the rear end with a leash around the lower stomach area.
Other useful commands are "leave it" "off" "speak" "search" "out" "Heel" and "Quiet"
If you can teach a send out into a long distance sit,stand,down,then a recall to heel with automatic sit when you stop and then the reverse heel with a Lapso anyone would be impressed.You throw in a crawl command and a search for your keys and you have a demo dog.

 

[Totally Judy]

There can only be one alpha in a pack and it should be you.
Other commands that are useful. Sit,STAND and down.You teach it on a table and can control the rear end with a leash around the lower stomach area.
Other useful commands are "leave it" "off" "speak" "search" "out" "Heel" and "Quiet"
If you can teach a send out into a long distance sit,stand,down,then a recall to heel with automatic sit when you stop and then the reverse heel with a Lapso anyone would be impressed.You throw in a crawl command and a search for your keys and you have a demo dog.

Up until about 2 months ago I thought that I actually WAS the Alpha in my pack. The marking on my bed was a wake up call that I was not. I am in the process of assuming my Alpha status.

The STAND is a command I need to learn. I really wish I had known how to teach that 2-1/2 years ago when I took Sophie into the ring at the National Specialty. The One HUGE difference between Obedience and Conformation competition - when the Handler stops, the dog is supposed to stand/stack. Sophie liked to sit when I stopped. Heck, our show career was one week long so it didn't really matter. But it could if I decide to show her in Veteran Class when she becomes 7 y/o!

Dang... a crawl command? Who woulda thunk it?

 

[cj65]

Ummm, Judy, I have a question? Can I get up now?

This is great stuff. I have a chocolate lab, who loves to run out front when she has a slight chance at freedom. She comes back quickly by me opening the car door and she will jump right in. However, calling her to comeback is in her time not mine. I worry about her getting hit, and feel dumb because I am not in control of my animal. Luckily, we live on a cul de sac, but the UPS guy drives it like it is a 4 lane highway. Really, it just takes effort, and some good advice, as to which all of you provided. BF just keeps on giving... Maybe the Mods can move this thread to maintenance, tinkering and embellishments. LOL.

 

[gajinoz]

If you plan to enter into any official obedience trials it is good to have different commands for the trial ring and training for it to those you use around the house or while simply walking down the street. Let me give you an example. The command STAY (as used in a trial) means stay exactly where you are, do not get up or sit down or move anywhere until you're told to do something else. I would only use the STAY command if I was in the ring. If I'm out somewhere else and I simply want the dog to remain where he is I'll use WAIT. He can sit up, lie down, sniff stuff, scratch himself, whatever, just remain where I left him. He knew the difference and there was never any confusion as to exactly what was needed in different circumstances.

Here is another tip about commands. The DOWN command is a great example for this. When I say DOWN it means he should drop to the ground immediately and stay there flat on his belly. Now, think about the dog being at home and you want him to get off the sofa so you yell get DOWN off there. All he hears is DOWN. You've just been teaching him that DOWN means drop immediately on your belly and don't move. See the confusion you could be causing here?

Stuff to think about.


.

 

[Totally Judy]

Ummm, Judy, I have a question? Can I get up now?

No.

 

[InfidelShootist]

Ummm, Judy, I have a question? Can I get up now?

This is great stuff. I have a chocolate lab, who loves to run out front when she has a slight chance at freedom. She comes back quickly by me opening the car door and she will jump right in. However, calling her to comeback is in her time not mine. I worry about her getting hit, and feel dumb because I am not in control of my animal. Luckily, we live on a cul de sac, but the UPS guy drives it like it is a 4 lane highway. Really, it just takes effort, and some good advice, as to which all of you provided. BF just keeps on giving... Maybe the Mods can move this thread to maintenance, tinkering and embellishments. LOL.

The recall command "Come" even under extreme distraction is easy enough when you know the tricks.
First get a positive association to the "come" command by putting the dog on a long line and using either a food or toy reward depending on what your dog prefers then with a partner you command the dog to come and reel him in immediately and reward with praise and the food or toy when he gets to you.
You and another pack member make a game of it going back and forth using the command "COME" once.Say the dogs name once to get it's attention then say the COMMAND once,then reel it in,if he starts coming on his own after you get him started you encourage him and reward the behavior.

From there you take him where he will be most distracted on the long line again.Buy a long line 30 foot,rope can burn your hand if he bolts, take to a duck pond,skate board park or dog park and wait until the dog is most distracted and give the command and reel him in again IMMEDIATELY.Stubborn dogs can be corrected for being slow with a prong collar if he fully understands the command.No corrections for the first say 10 sessions.You need the positive association to the command come first.
Keep the training sessions short,fast and fun.Not drudgery.A good trainer makes training fun if he can but never boring to the dog.
Sensitive dogs use a 2 inch collar.The idea is to teach the dog "Come" is good at first.Then you must teach "come" is inevitable and can not be avoided.
You don't ever use the command "Come" without the long line on until the dog is trained/conditioned,that could be a month or two to be sure and how many sessions you do and how much distraction you use.
To "proof" the dog.Which is to "Test" without a line a shock collar is used set at a very low level in a large enclosed area at first.Pain or punishment is not desired but a Pavlovian conditioned response is.You really need a pro to teach you this.
It's easy really.Easier then writing this for me anyway,I've done it with hundreds of dogs most extreme high drive working dogs.
I can recall or down my current dog at hundreds of yards away in full attack mode inches from who he's attacking with one command.
With a conditioned response you can even have dogs respond correctly in full fight or prey mode.
Good training is something like 95% positive reward and association and the remaining 5% teaches that the leaders commands can not be ignored without consequences.

 

[Totally Judy]

This is all GREAT STUFF!!! I am copying all of your training suggestions into a Word document for reference. I definitely have my work cut out for me, especially with two relatively young dogs to train. I consider 3 y/o to be young in a breed where a lifespan of -15-18 y/o is not unusual. They are pretty much still in their "teens" and not really mature at all - not like the older two who are much more settled.

I am extremely leary about using a prong or shock collar on my dogs.

Using different commands makes sense. For Mongo, when I want him to get off the couch, I don't use "down" - it is either "go lay down" or "get down." He knows immediately that he has to get his butt off the couch because I don't want him next to me because the Alpha is sitting on the couch and I haven't invited him. I suppose I could change it to "Off" so there would definitely be no confusion. He'll pick it up. If he is allowed to be on the couch and he needs to be calmed down, I say, "Lay down" and he knows he can stay on the couch but he has to be quiet and still and lay wherever he can find an available spot.

Mongo is a crack up. He does what I call "Black Attacks" where he leaps across the couch to land on me with his happy and delighted face right next to mine. "Hi, Mom! I love you!" His eyes are sparkling and he makes me laugh every time he does it. It is sort of a cross between a leap and a pounce.

Sometimes I catch him in mid leap/pounce with a "Gentle" command. He practically puts the brakes on in mid leap and then slowly and gently eases next to me and then just softly lays his head against me. He picked up the "Gentle" really quickly. Mongo will lay on the couch or wherever he is and he will have his eyes on me all the time, unless he is snoozing. He is ALWAYS aware of what I am doing and where I am. I've never had a dog who lays near me with is eyes just watching. Watching. Watching. He is relaxed, but he always watches me.

 

[Totally Judy]

If you plan to enter into any official obedience trials it is good to have different commands for the trial ring and training for it to those you use around the house or while simply walking down the street. Let me give you an example. The command STAY (as used in a trial) means stay exactly where you are, do not get up or sit down or move anywhere until you're told to do something else. I would only use the STAY command if I was in the ring. If I'm out somewhere else and I simply want the dog to remain where he is I'll use WAIT. He can sit up, lie down, sniff stuff, scratch himself, whatever, just remain where I left him. He knew the difference and there was never any confusion as to exactly what was needed in different circumstances.

Stuff to think about.

Okay, I understand the difference between STAY and WAIT. But how do I get my dogs to understand the difference? What hand signal would I use for a WAIT? I use my hand in the "STOP" position when I give the "STAY" command.

 

[gajinoz]

Okay, I understand the difference between STAY and WAIT. But how do I get my dogs to understand the difference? What hand signal would I use for a WAIT? I use my hand in the "STOP" position when I give the "STAY" command.

It's not all that important exactly what you use but it is very important that it is consistent. The stop signal directly in front of his nose is great for the stay. What I did for wait is a bit different. I would simply pass my hand across in front of him with fingers open. Basically, just pass your hand across from one side of the dog to the other in front of his nose. Another great way to distinguish between two hand signals is to simply use the other hand. So, STAY is a stop signal with the right hand. Wait is an open hand wave with the left hand. Very easy for the dog to see the difference.

 

[Totally Judy]

So, STAY is a stop signal with the right hand. Wait is an open hand wave with the left hand. Very easy for the dog to see the difference.

I can do that. I actually have a left hand AND a right hand. And fingers on both. :thumbup:

And I do give the STAY right in front of the dog's nose. I'm practically smashing his nose into his face!!!! At least I know that the danged dogs can never tell me that they didn't see the signal!!!