My first knife ever and made from a file, question about the Nicholson Mexican Steel

[Mr.Majestik]

Hello all, I've learned so much on this forum here that I decided to give it a shot and make a knife, I had an oldish bent, rusty, toothless Nicholson Mill Bastard made in Mexico, I straightened it and softened it enough to file and sand and shape, and being partial to Japanese style blades, here lies the rough beginnings. It's not sharp yet, but will be soon. I've got no forge, and no space to put one...(Yet). But, I do have some other implements, though of no serious caliber. I have a bench grinder and a drill press for power tools. And I can get small knife size steel hot enough. The question is does anybody know what the heck these files files are made out of? I've emailed nicholson 3 times to no avail. And the general opinion is they're 1095, but it doesn't spark like 1095 on the grinder so I wonder...maybe since I softened it? Maybe the Mexican made files are some other steel.

 

[RichardBay]

Nice work

 

[NJBillK]

From what I have read, numerous sources on here state the carbon content of USA made Nicholson files are around 1.20%.
As for as their Mexican counterparts, I cannot speak with any certainty. But at least you now have a bit of info to use as a baseline.

A bit of critique if I may?
Watch the sharp inside points of the triangular jimping, it could be a fracture point due to stress being concentrated there. If you round the valleys, you will spread the load.

Good luck. Nice lines so far.

 

[Natlek]

I found this this information about Nicholson file ....

Nicholson Files

These files are NOS from the early 70’s. They are all made with 1.3 Carbon Steel as opposed to .95 (1095) and Rockwell out to 72=RC.

 

[samuraistuart]

I found this this information about Nicholson file ....

This is in reference to the old Black Diamond files, which do have a carbon content of 1.3% Aldo the Steel Baron actually has some of these NOS files for sale, and that exact quote is on his site. The current files, made in Mexico and Brazil, are indeed 1095, as per Nicholson's own admission.

 

[Mr.Majestik]

Nice work

Thank you very much sir!

A bit of critique if I may?
Watch the sharp inside points of the triangular jimping, it could be a fracture point due to stress being concentrated there. If you round the valleys, you will spread the load.

Good luck. Nice lines so far.

Constructive Criticism Always Welcome and Appreciated! Thank you, I will definitely be rounding those corners a bit...

This is in reference to the old Black Diamond files, which do have a carbon content of 1.3% Aldo the Steel Baron actually has some of these NOS files for sale, and that exact quote is on his site. The current files, made in Mexico and Brazil, are indeed 1095, as per Nicholson's own admission.

Now, I've just got off the phone with a man at Apex Tool Co. (names withheld to protect the innocent), and he said that the current formulation is a HC steel, to be treated as W-1, water harden. He gave me no percentages but I Suspect it's near 1% C if not 1. something. Why I say this is because of the spark pattern on my grinder it's sparkly like 1095 but the sparks aren't as "flowery" (plants, not baking) but there are very many and it looks more like a christmas sparkler (if any one remembers those) so I guess A refined grain with plenty of carbon... maybe I'm nuts for thinking this way and going off sparks, but, it's knowledge my dad gave me, who am I to question the old man's wisdom. So I guess maybe I can finally provide a slightly more definite answer to my own question. And perhaps to many others.

http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/w1.shtml
http://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=9114

 

[BlackHands]

[/URL][/IMG] I'm right there with ya buddy! I have a PILE of 3/16"x1-1/8"x1'+ files, this was my first try and dont know how I'll fare at making scales so thus the one piece deal. These files are HARD, need a good full annealing if using hand tools. I picked up an angle grinder and got 90% of the parts for a belt grind setup today. Keep up the good work, I think us file beaters make up a whole class of its own where determination trumps means by a long shot! My next file knife is going to be a 5.5-6" busse wannabe, cut for scales, see if we can get a better product then the above!

 

[BlackHands]

GREAT job by the way!

 

[Mr.Majestik]

[URL=http://s1369.photobucket.com/user/RifledDNA/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160226_225709-1-1_zps9wgzammq.jpg.html] I'm right there with ya buddy! I have a PILE of 3/16"x1-1/8"x1'+ files, this was my first try and dont know how I'll fare at making scales so thus the one piece deal. These files are HARD, need a good full annealing if using hand tools. I picked up an angle grinder and got 90% of the parts for a belt grind setup today. Keep up the good work, I think us file beaters make up a whole class of its own where determination trumps means by a long shot! My next file knife is going to be a 5.5-6" busse wannabe, cut for scales, see if we can get a better product then the above![/QUOTE]

Hello sir...Nice job on the finger grooves. and I like how you have most of the texture left on the file.... I was trying to keep some, but by the time I was done straightening and cleaning there weren't many left...If there's one thing I learned that I'd like to pass on, it's to use tape to block out the areas to hold back while removing metal. That way if I swipe over a bevel I won't damage the work done I'll just sand some tape before hitting the surface masked off. Can't wait to see the finished product BTW.

 

[BlackHands]

Thanks a lot! , That is exactly something I encountered doing this first knife, its a juggling act between trying to get it done cause its taken forever (with the majority handtooled, its like uerrr, let's go metal) then taking it to the wheel and trying to play catch up. I was eager as heck to just get it done, get that first knife lopping paper. Good time to see where you can dig in and when its time to pull back, only gonna learn that from experience, and just digging in and slopping past the PNR gave me a pretty good idea of where it was I said "oh crap, shoulda slowed down" the tape is a good bit of foresight in that aspect.

 

[Mr.Majestik]

... and slopping past the PNR gave me a ....

What's PNR?

 

[BlackHands]

Lol, I was trying to be clever, watching Alien vs predator and San Andreas too many times, Point of No Return

 

[samuraistuart]

There was a thread, from this forum or another I don't recall, and a fella had called Nicholson and the rep told him it was 1095. I've seen threads here and elsewhere that the rep said, "It is a 1% carbon steel, and to treat it like W1 or W2". What they mean by that is it needs a tight temp control, a soak, and a fast quench, like water/brine or fast quench oil.

Bottom line is this, the steel in the files is basically 1095, or W1 if you like. The only difference between the two steels is basically a touch of Cr in W1 to increase hardenability, and a touch of V to keep grain size in check during austenitizing.

Another way to put it, 1095, W1, W2, these steels get the same exact heat treat, because they're basically all the same thing. You can even throw White steel (shiro) in that list as well.

 

[Mr.Majestik]

There was a thread, from this forum or another I don't recall, and a fella had called Nicholson and the rep told him it was 1095. I've seen threads here and elsewhere that the rep said, "It is a 1% carbon steel, and to treat it like W1 or W2". What they mean by that is it needs a tight temp control, a soak, and a fast quench, like water/brine or fast quench oil.

Bottom line is this, the steel in the files is basically 1095, or W1 if you like. The only difference between the two steels is basically a touch of Cr in W1 to increase hardenability, and a touch of V to keep grain size in check during austenitizing.

Another way to put it, 1095, W1, W2, these steels get the same exact heat treat, because they're basically all the same thing. You can even throw White steel (shiro) in that list as well.

Right on. I guess the only real difference between W-1(2) and 1095 is the depth of hardening?
I definitely haven't been on this forum long enough to see the all battles which have probably occurred centered around this topic and certainly don't wish to ignite another. But, unless I'm mistaken 1095 is much more difficult to harden well compared to W-1. And i'm not so sure that quenching 1095 in water with thinner profile material won't crack, but, that may just be my own fear...

Just for kicks:
http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=W1, W2, 1095&hrn=1&gm=0

 

[samuraistuart]

The pearlite nose for both 1095 and W2 is around 1 second or less, so hardenability between the two is pretty identical. W2, to me, is just an improved 1095, capable of finer aus grain because of the Vanadium. 1095 doesn't have it (usually), so grain growth during hardening can be an issue. Not so much with W2. 1095 isn't much more difficult to harden well compared to W1. Technically, the Cr in the W series steels is to aid hardenability, but when working it in the real world, you need that very fast quench to beat the pearlite nose in time. Generally, we don't recommend water quenches for 1095, because a fast oil will harden it just fine. Inclusions can be a problem in water quenching, as well. W2 and W1 should be a bit "cleaner" than 1095.

If you were talking with a bladesmith who has been at the top of his game for decades, and asked him to differentiate between 1095, W1, and W2, while working the steel, hardening the steel, testing the steel, I sort of think even HE wouldn't be able to tell them apart. Maybe, but I kind of doubt it. I could see one way off the top of my head, tho, to sort of contradict myself. If he were to take the 1095 and heat it at 1700 with a soak, he could break it and see that the elevated heat caused grain growth (no alloying to help keep grain small). While the W2 at the same temperature and soak would not exhibit grain growth, because the Vanadium helps to pin the grain boundaries, preventing growth.

You may recall Cold Steel's Carbon V, made by Sharon steel IIRC. Pretty much a suped up version of 1095, or another version of W2.

 

[NJBillK]

Stuart, I greatly appreciate the time spent on this, and if I may be so bold to ask for a bit more?

I know that it has been stated in passing remarks that carbon v and Kabar 1095 Crovan are either
A: Near identical in make up
B: Same product, different name/maker
C: Different alloys with similarities (possibly like 52100 and the original sr101, I am postulating the bold text as an example)
D: different all together

Any ideas on the subject?

Nevermind, just did some looking around and found my answer.



-------
Sorry if this results in a derail OP.

 

[jdm61]

I was under the impression that only W2 had the vanadium, etc and that W1 was, for lack of a better way of describing it, very clean 1095. There was a period of time to too long ago where that cleanliness thing might have been more significant than today now that we can get very good quality 10xx steel easily.

There was a thread, from this forum or another I don't recall, and a fella had called Nicholson and the rep told him it was 1095. I've seen threads here and elsewhere that the rep said, "It is a 1% carbon steel, and to treat it like W1 or W2". What they mean by that is it needs a tight temp control, a soak, and a fast quench, like water/brine or fast quench oil.

Bottom line is this, the steel in the files is basically 1095, or W1 if you like. The only difference between the two steels is basically a touch of Cr in W1 to increase hardenability, and a touch of V to keep grain size in check during austenitizing.

Another way to put it, 1095, W1, W2, these steels get the same exact heat treat, because they're basically all the same thing. You can even throw White steel (shiro) in that list as well.

 

[jdm61]

"Silver steel" like what you see in Germany and other places in Europe appears falls into that general category, albeit with a bit less manganese.

Stuart, I greatly appreciate the time spent on this, and if I may be so bold to ask for a bit more?

I know that it has been stated in passing remarks that carbon v and Kabar 1095 Crovan are either
A: Near identical in make up
B: Same product, different name/maker
C: Different alloys with similarities (possibly like 52100 and the original sr101, I am postulating the bold text as an example)
D: different all together

Any ideas on the subject?

Nevermind, just did some looking around and found my answer.



-------
Sorry if this results in a derail OP.

 

[samuraistuart]

I was under the impression that only W2 had the vanadium, etc and that W1 was, for lack of a better way of describing it, very clean 1095. There was a period of time to too long ago where that cleanliness thing might have been more significant than today now that we can get very good quality 10xx steel easily.

The V count in W1 may not be present in all W1. 1095 and 1084 technically aren't supposed to have it, but some of them do. Zknives even shows a Vanadium count for aisiW1 as .1%. Just enough to help keep aus grain in check. And I think you're definitely right, the 10xx series steels are pretty clean these days.