My new grinders are close! Here are the first pics. .....you like?

rfrink

rfrink

Joined
Aug 1, 2000
Messages
863
Hello all!


Well after a few weeks, I've nearly got the first two prototype grinders
ready.  I 'm so happy with them that I couldn't wait any longer to
post some pics even though they are not done.

 


If you wish to reflect on the history of this design you can go back
to these postings:


<a href="http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum51/HTML/001370.html" target=_blank>&nbsp;http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum51/HTML/001370.html&nbsp;
My idea for a low cost grinder, whatta think? (pics)</a><a href="http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum51/HTML/001370.html"></a>


<a href="http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum51/HTML/001384.html" target=_blank>http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum51/HTML/001384.html&nbsp;&nbsp;
The second iteration of my grinder design (more pics)</a><a href="http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum51/HTML/001384.html"></a>


<a href="http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum51/HTML/001410.html" target=_blank>http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum51/HTML/001410.html&nbsp;
The third iteration.....is it time to build it yet?</a>

<a href="http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum51/HTML/001384.html"></a>&nbsp;<a href="http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum51/HTML/001384.html"></a>


<img SRC="http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/sq_wheel/rev3/MVC-091E.JPG" NOSAVE BORDER=3 height=240 width=320 align=ABSBOTTOM>






<img SRC="http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/sq_wheel/rev3/MVC-092E.JPG" NOSAVE BORDER=3 height=240 width=320 align=ABSBOTTOM>
<center>The grinder with the sanding belt is fitted with a 3" contact wheel
and a <a href="http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/sq_wheel/rev3/MVC-080E.JPG" target=_blank>variable
speed cone pulley</a>. The grinder on the left is just plain Jane without
a wheel. I'll make the square wheel attachment for it.

&nbsp;

&nbsp;


<img SRC="http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/sq_wheel/rev3/MVC-077E.JPG" NOSAVE BORDER=3 height=240 width=320 align=ABSBOTTOM>
This photo shows the tracking and tension adjustment.&nbsp; The tension
is adjustable by turning the brass nut under the spring. The tracking is
controlled by a thumb screw which tilts the idler/tension wheel. Note that
the idler roller is mounted on a pivot.


I was a bit over enthusiastic when I started taking pictures.&nbsp;
Instead of jamming up your browser by loading them all at once, click on
the links to view what you want to see.&nbsp; The picture will open up
in a new screen for convenience.</center>

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/sq_wheel/rev3/Mvc-074e.jpg" target=_blank>1.
Grinder temporarily mounted to workbench to try out.</a>

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/sq_wheel/rev3/MVC-078E.JPG" target=_blank>2.
right side view</a>

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/sq_wheel/rev3/MVC-079E.JPG" target=_blank>3.
drive shaft view</a>

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/sq_wheel/rev3/MVC-080E.JPG" target=_blank>4.
Variable speed setup!</a>

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/sq_wheel/rev3/MVC-081E.JPG" target=_blank>5.
Plain Jane</a>

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/sq_wheel/rev3/MVC-082E.JPG" target=_blank>6.
Plain Jane's rear view</a>

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/sq_wheel/rev3/MVC-083E.JPG" target=_blank>7.&nbsp;
side view of Jane</a>

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/sq_wheel/rev3/MVC-084E.JPG" target=_blank>8.
another side view of Jane</a>

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/sq_wheel/rev3/MVC-085E.JPG" target=_blank>9.
front view</a>

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/sq_wheel/rev3/MVC-094E.JPG" target=_blank>10.
closeup of the idler/tension/tracking wheel</a>

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/sq_wheel/rev3/MVC-095E.JPG" target=_blank>11.
close up of the variable speed pulley</a>

http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/sq_wheel/rev3/Mvc-074e.jpg&nbsp;http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/sq_wheel/rev3/Mvc-074e.jpg


If you've never seen a cone type variable speed pulley, they are really
very simple. This one is for a 10 hp MTD riding mower. It controls the
speed of the mower. The center flange floats from side to side which effectively
changes the pitch diameter of the two grooves. When the pitch diameter
of one groove gets larger the other side gets smaller. To change speeds
on this grinder, I move the pulley either toward or away from the motor.
The pulley is mounted on a lever.&nbsp; So far I really like it and will
probably put one on my drill press.&nbsp; I'll bring a tachometer home
from work to find out the speed range.


I still have more work to do....make some 8" contact wheels,&nbsp; square
wheel attachments, tool rests,.....etc.&nbsp; I just couldn't wait to show
somebody.&nbsp; I showed my wife but she just wanted money to go shopping.
frown.gif



Let me know what you think so far.


Sincerely,

-Rob

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/index.html">Beaumont
Metal Works</a>
 
Outstanding Rob!!! You are going to open knife making up to alot of new folks !!

------------------
Always think of your fellow knife makers as partners in the search for the perfect blade, not as people trying to compete with you and your work!
http://www.nebsnow.com/L6steel
Buzzards gotta eat, same as worms!!!
 
Howdy There....!
I think thye are great looking, they certainly look like they are steady and strong. Did you do all the machine work or is it a matter of bolting all the parts together. Please keep us other non-mechancal typess informed on your progress. I think they are something to be proud of and not blame you a bit for wanting to show them off. Good work...!

"Possum"

------------------
Thomas Clegg
 
Those are great! They look very solid and well put together. Thats a lot nicer than any type of machinery I could make here at home.You should be proud.

------------------
It'll feel better when it stops hurting.
 
Rob,

It looks real nice! I would be interested in the SFPM (surface feet/minute) of the belt and the price range you expect to sell them for.

Thanks.
 
Man those look great. I had an idea, maybe a bad one but...if you really wanted to open it up to those poor knifemaker wannabe's, you could sell a kit option. All the parts, with instructions, and we get to put it together ourselves. I would love to do that, then not only would we save a little money, but we would know exactly how it was put together in case of future problems or modifications.

Just an idea. Anyway, how much are you looking to get for one of these guys? I am definitely interested.

Thanks
Jared



------------------
Broken promises don't upset me. I just think, why did they believe me?

I hope that after I die, people will say of me: "That guy sure owed me a lot of money."
 
Rob, those are very nice. Well done. Do you plan to make and sell these? If so, how much? I am always talking to new makers who want to break into knifemaking without breaking into the kids' college fund or the wife's piggy bank.

The variable pulley is a great idea and I'm surprised someone else hasn't used it. Even a 5:1 speed range is probably sufficient for most knifemaking (mine anyway) needs.



------------------
Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
The Tom & Jerry Show
 
Im a newbie so this will probably sound dumb. Why cant you just use a regualar wood working belt snader that you would buy at a sears. You dont have to worry about vibration, takes all kinds of grits. If you want it to be variable that can be done too, I dont know exactly what its called but my dad hooked something up so you can do that. I used my dads sander on my first knife and it turned out perfect except for my mistakes due to inexperience. I can see someone who really cares using that, but im only 16 and not that serious, what exactly is the difference.
 
Hello Again!

I worked on the square wheel attachment tonight and ran it for 1/2 hr or so. Istarting to find myself wasting time just grinding scraps away into dust...its kind of addicting!

I got carried away with the designing and building and lost the handle on the cost.... I need some time to sit down and figure what I've got in these and how I'll sell them. Should I do a basic frame and offer add on options? offer the grand daddy package with all the bells and whistles? I guess it is a mute point right know untill I figure out what it'll cost anyway.
<hr>
Answers to questions:

Possum, I tried to keep the machine work to a minimum but I did machine about everything. Just to square it up if nothing else. My goal was to design it so mechanical types can build it at home with std sizes of material and min machine tools. A skilled craftsman with a cutoff saw and a drill press can build it. I'm going to put the plans online with all the details and dimensions.....give me some time though...it may take a few weeks.

<hr>
L6steel and Matt,

Thank you for the encouraging words!

<hr>
Kaos,
What are desirable SFPM speeds. I'm using a 4" driver wheel and I'll get some shieves to test it out. The variable speed seem to have a wide range but I won't know for sure untill I actually measure it.
<hr>
Flesh Gordon,

That is a great idea! I could sell all of the critical machined parts and let you drill and tapp the non critical pieces. Also you could provide all of your own hardware(nuts and bolts...etc) I'm not sure where to draw the line on what to make or not make...I guess that depends on your resources.

hmmmm...you got me thinking...I'll never sleep tonight untill I figure this one out
smile.gif

<hr>
Live wire,

Thank you for the note! I'm not sure how to answer you. I guess it depends on your requirements. If you make knives and sell them for a living, then time is money. The faster you can make your product and sell it then the more money you get in return. For a grinder: bigger, smoother, more powerful is better...it is faster and thus more potential for a return on the investment. Your point is very good in that if your craftsman grinder makes perfect blades why buy something else.....it would be crazy to buy something else, unless we needed something that the craftsman did'nt offer..ie (spped, power, flexibility..etc) Only you know what you need.

A reason for buying machininery that we don't need is that I'm addicted to machines. My wife likes shoes...I like machines and tools! OK that's a lame reason...but I tried (hee hee!)
<hr>

 
Livewire
I'm currently using a 4x36 beltsander, and your right, you can get by with it just fine. If your doing it as a hobby you probably won't ever have to upgrade unless you just want to. But it has a lot of drawbacks when you compare it to the commercial grade belt grinders and grinders designed specifically for knife making.
one of the biggest drawbacks is the platen. 99% of the time a beltsander platen is shaped wrong for grinding knives. Its usually wider than the belt which ruins any chances of a good plunge, even if you adjust the tracking its hard to get it just right. And the platen isn't made for grinding steel. Its more likely to get dished out than a regular grinders platen. And they generally can't be replaced or surface ground very easily.
Then theres the belt issue. You either have to use aluminum oxide belts which kind of suck. Or you have to have belts custom made.
Then lastly is power. Most belt sanders have fairly small motors on them that are more liklely to get burnt up from heavy grinding on a peice of steel than a big industrial motor. Some of them have an open housing also which can get full of steel grit and ruin the motor too.
Oh yeah, the aftermarket variable speed controllers are good if you can find one rated for the motor on your sander, but alot of them are for smaller motors like a router. Using one of those will work ok but it can cause the motor to overheat more easily because of the draw it puts on the motor.
If your only doing a couple knives a year, or have lots of time the beltsander works fine. But if you on a deadline or doing a lot of grinding your a lot better off with a grinder designed for what your doing.
Hope that helsp anwer your question.

------------------
It'll feel better when it stops hurting.
 
Rob,

I would estimate a SFPM range of 1200-3400. In your particular setup, the contact wheel could be changed without affecting the belt speed.
 
I've some more info on the vari-speed system. The cone pulley that I used has a range of 3:1 which means you can run your sfpm at 3600-1200 or 3000-1000 etc. I scanned some ages from an industrial power transmission catologe that has some application notes. These file a big so be patient if you download them. They'll open up in a new screen.


page1.gif


page2.gif


This might be an alternative to expensive motor controllers and you'll still have tons of horse power at the low speeds. This is some food for thought.



-Rob
 
rob the machines are looking good! you might want to have two or three levels. 1) complete machine already asembled 2) conponets, sheet metal and directions 3) componets and directions. keep us posted!




------------------
Laurence Segal www.RHINOKNIVES.com
 
Looks great! Is there a platen attachment for flat grinding? Also, how much would the whole grinder be? I have a grizzly on backorder since August. Also, is the motor included?? Thanks!
 
I, too, would be interested to know a price when you get a chance to think about it...

Jerry, slowly, as time, money, and equipment allows... (Monkeyed with a little file work the other day.) BTW, Congratulations on a great review.

------------------
Tom
Click here for Grohmann and Marble's knives.

[This message has been edited by Tom Marshman (edited 10-06-2000).]
 
Thank you all for the questions and interest!
<center>


I've finished my grinders and now some the answers to many long awaited
questions.

<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/grinder/Mvc-111f.jpg" TARGET=_blank><img SRC="http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/grinder/Mvc-111e.jpg" NOSAVE BORDER=3 height=240 width=320></A>

click photo for larger view


 The driver wheel is 4" in diameter which makes it convenient to
set up your desired SFPM. A 4" diameter is about 1 foot in circumference,
so if you need 3000 SFPM belt speed, simply size the pulleys from your
motor to spin the drive shaft at 3000 rpm.  Ideally, use step pulleys
to give a range of speeds.</center>


<hr WIDTH="100%">The package that I decided on is as follows: (see photo)
<div align=right><A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/grinder/Mvc-124f.jpg" TARGET=_blank><img SRC="http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/grinder/Mvc-124e.jpg" NOSAVE BORDER=3 height=240 width=320 align=RIGHT></A></div>

1.) 4" drive roller

2.) 8" contact wheel (smooth, 70 durometer)

3.) square wheel attachment ( two rollers, adjustable and replaceable    
platen)

4.) basic chassis

5.) one tooling bar

6.) you supply the motor of your choice


The price for this package is $680


<center>


 

                             
click photo for larger view

<hr WIDTH="100%">

If your still with me (after the sticker shock
frown.gif
).....here are more
photos and info:</center>

<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/grinder/Mvc-113e.jpg" TARGET=_blank>contact
wheel setup</A>

<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/grinder/Mvc-115e.jpg" TARGET=_blank>rear
view of the contact wheel setup</A>

<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/grinder/Mvc-118e.jpg" TARGET=_blank>another
view of the adjustable tension and tracking system</A>http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/grinder/Mvc-113e.jpg


<a href="http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/grinder/Mvc-119e.jpg" target=_blank>Square
wheel setup</A>

<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/grinder/Mvc-121e.jpg" TARGET=_blank>The
square wheel attachment  inclines!</A>

<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/grinder/Mvc-122f.jpg" TARGET=_blank>close-up
of the square wheel attachment</A>http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/grinder/Mvc-122f.jpg


I tried to incorporate all of the design changes that Ed Caffrey wrote
about on his  <a href="http://www.caffreyknives.com/wilton.htm" target=_blank>Wilton
Square Wheeler</A>http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/grinder/Mvc-113e.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/grinder/Mvc-113e.jpg
<center>

<hr WIDTH="100%">

I'm still working on a variable speed option:http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/grinder/Mvc-113e.jpg


<a href="http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/grinder/Mvc-125e.jpg" target=_blank>Variable
speed setup for testing</a>

<hr WIDTH="100%">

<font size=+2>MOVIE TIME!</font><font size=+2></font>


I have some 15 sec mpg movies demonstrating the grinder. I tried to set them up here but I couldn't get them to open so if you're interested, link to this page and open them: Grinder Movies [url="http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/movies.html"]http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/movies.html </A></center>

<hr WIDTH="100%">


I don't anticipate that the grinders will be available until I've been
able to test them out. From there it'll take about 4-6 weeks to build the first ones.  Keep in mind that these photos are
the prototypes and I have a few minor design changes to incorporate in the newer versions.  The idler roller will be larger and the
base plate bolt pattern will change a bit. Also, the tracking pivot arm
will be redesigned into a bolt together assembly rather than a weldment. 


 


Well, that's about it.  I missed my goal on making an inexpensive
grinder, however I think that the input given has created a very good grinder! 
Time will tell.   I'll update my web site with more specific
info and the pricing. In the meantime, feel free to drop me a line if you
have any questions.


Sincerely,


Rob Frink

rfrink@qn.net


<a href="http://www.geocities.com/beaumontmetal/index.html">Beaumont
Metal Works</a>


[This message has been edited by rfrink (edited 10-08-2000).]

[This message has been edited by rfrink (edited 10-08-2000).]
 
Well, that is a very nice grinder!! I wish I had $680!!! Oh well, maybe in a few years. Hmmm. How much would it be if I supplyed steel and stuff? Will plans to make it be available? I have a friend who is a machinist that might be able to give me scrap steel and that type of stuff. Thanks!
 
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