My new Khuk and his buddy

[Misanthropic_Gods]

Well, I just opened up the package from Yangdu today, and she sent me the 16.5 inch 22 ounce true villager Knife by Vim Bhadur Kami with white metal fittings, Satisal handle and the wooden sheath that I ordered on the 3/19 DOTD. What really caught my eye was how the blade is coated with some sort of black material, I REALLY liked that. Included in the package was a small NEPAL pin and a postcard featuring Mt. Everest.

I took the blade out, cleaned it and started removing the SMALL amount of rust that was in a few spots on the blade. This design has a totally different construction than that of my 16.5in CAK, this one has less belly and is balanced totally differently. I personally think that the CAK feels and swings better in my hand, but this Villager feels great, especially with the Satisal handle, it feels strange when I am used to a horn handle.

These villagers are not built to last like the CAK is, but damn, this blade is going to last me for a good long while at least! It also is a work of art as well as function and deserves a place on the wall, right next to my other Khuk.

 

[b.c.molin]

What really caught my eye was how the blade is coated with some sort of black material, I REALLY liked that.

I took the blade out, cleaned it and started removing the SMALL amount of rust that was in a few spots on the blade.

Good to read your first impressions upon the the Villager finish.:thumbup:

Do you think it will provide less rust resistance than that of more polished blades?

 

[Misanthropic_Gods]

Good to read your first impressions upon the the Villager finish.:thumbup:

Do you think it will provide less rust resistance than that of more polished blades?

Absolutely, you dont have bare metal exposed, which means less rust, the ONLY rust on the blade was right on the edge, which doesn't surprise me

 

[b.c.molin]

Absolutely, you dont have bare metal exposed, which means less rust, the ONLY rust on the blade was right on the edge, which doesn't surprise me

That really is good news about the new Villager finish as I also think it looks great and if it is more rust resistant so much the better!:thumbup:

 

[Empire_ian]

lol at cheap saya. I mean a functional blade doesn't need fancy fittings but still.

If that sword at the top was a real nihonto you probably would have sprung for better ones.

What type is it? What do you use it for?

 

[Misanthropic_Gods]

Its a cheap sword that I got for $60 at a pawn shop, It has a handmade blade, its worth about $200 retail, its pretty well balanced..its not some sort of great blade, but I used it to practice martial arts and it worked pretty well as a good live blade to train with.

I haven't and wouldn't drop that much cash to drop on a great blade handmade in Japan as a blade I would actually use. I was in the market for a fairly nice blade that was cheap, and used to train with

 

[kronckew]

...
I haven't and wouldn't drop that much cash to drop on a great blade handmade in Japan as a blade I would actually use...

i did, bought a katana in tokyo about 1985 made by one of the then 'living treasure' swordsmiths to fit me, in simple dress it was about $5k, had to stay there two weeks to get an export permit, left it with my ex-wife in phoenix for safekeeping as i was working in saudi at the time. was stolen out of her house. :grumpy:

won't do that again. i have a nice £99 hand forged & tempered one now, not as nice a hamon & not as well balanced, but functional.

 

[Misanthropic_Gods]

i did, bought a katana in tokyo about 1985 made by one of the then 'living treasure' swordsmiths to fit me, in simple dress it was about $5k, had to stay there two weeks to get an export permit, left it with my ex-wife in phoenix for safekeeping as i was working in saudi at the time. was stolen out of her house. :grumpy:

won't do that again. i have a nice £99 hand forged & tempered one now, not as nice a hamon & not as well balanced, but functional.

A functional blade doesnt have to be expensive, if you arent using it much, you dont need to drop that money. You sacrifice quality of course, and it defiantly wont last as long, but a blade is a blade.

 

[Empire_ian]

Well, there is a difference, I think they showed it pretty well on that show weapon masters, though admittedly his was poorly polished.

As far as training is concerned, may as well just use an Iaito.

I suppose a cheap sword is better than none, but for me its the principle of the matter. If I wanted to (hypothetically of course) use a well made but cheap sword in a duel, I think I would practice a European martial art, because euroswords are designed to not need such refinement.

Speaking of which, does anybody know how the HI "everest katana" is made. If its from HI I doubt they use the high tech methods that Americans use to make differentially hardened swords. Do they use different grades of steel or anything, or is it just a regular HI sword in the shape of a katana?

 

[kronckew]

hi katana (and other types of) swords are made from same steel as the khukuris, they are all differentially hardened along the edge by hand quenching with boiling water from a teapot. they are not polished to bring out the hamon, so no discussions of whether it's komidare or gunome. for a purist, they are only katana shaped objects, but they are built like an m1a2 abrahms main battle tank and i'd not hesitate to use one in battle. it'd probably survive abuse a proper katana would fail under. they are made to be used and used hard, not as the art objects they also are. i'm sure some of the troops here will chip in some anecdotes.

here's a linky to an old review of the HI katana.

shop - note the before (r.) and after (l.)

a kami differentially hardening a khukuri

Water was the quenching medium for 2500 years or so. It was used in Nepal "since the beginning" and a kami's skill is largely passed down from one generation to the next. The hardening of the blade is really an art rather than a skill.

Bura was giving me a lesson in hardening a couple of years ago --"setting the pine" they call it. Pine = hardness.

Bura lectured as he did the work.

"Color is very important. See this color? The blade is not hot enough. See this color? The blade is too hot. See this color? It is just right. See the color at the tip? See the color at the cho? These all must be just right before you start to pour."

When the blade color was just right he began to pour from his pitcher.

"You cannot pour too fast and you cannot pour too slow. You must pour just the right amount at just the right speed. Watch the blade change color. You will see red, purple, green, in various shades and then black. If you do not see the color change seven times you have missed and must begin again. See it has changed three times already. There, again. And again. Again, and now it is black. It is finished and the blade pine is just where we want it to be. It is very hard here (pointing to the chopping area) and not as hard here and here (tip and bottom of blade). This knife is perfect."

I took a file to check the blade and Bura chuckled. "You are wasting your time."

And I was.

bura is the royal kami at HI.

 

[Empire_ian]

It'd probably survive abuse a proper katana would fail under.

Depends on what type of abuse. From what I've seen of extreme torture tests, a traditionally forged katana seems to absorb a blow much better than any single grade steel, even with bullet impacts, it does not wobble, now granted the HI katana is, knowing them, probably thicker than your average katana shaped object.

I would not be surprised if it received less edge damage because a katana's edge is rather brittle.

Nothing beats extreme polish though, I'm sure an HI katana is just fine for fighting, I mean, curved swords other than the traditional katana exist afterall, but it will not cut as clean or as sharply.

But when you look at the price difference it doesn't seem so bad

What makes me laugh though is that, if they do the katana with the kettle quench, that makes it even more of a "katana shaped object" than a crap US sword, because correct me if im wrong, but it will have had to have it's curve hammered into it rather than curving naturally with a clay quench.

Well and I don't think any of their scabbards are really suitable for Iaido.

 

[kronckew]

the japanese steels were in general poor, so techniques to maximise their efficiency by combining different quality steels in the core, back and edge made the best use of what was available, and also then when polished produced a decorative effect that turned the swords into art. the total product is/was good, but not superhuman. western monosteels are as good if not better and more readily available. properly heat treated a monosteel sword is not necessarily inferior to a folded japanese one. it's definitely not as pretty. in a fight pretty doesn't count for much. japanese swords range from excellent art treasures for the ruling elite down to mass produced beaters for the ashigaru.

the traditional folded katana is great for cutting exercises where done correctly. i have heard of numerous occasions where an expensive katana has bent after incorrect technique while cutting bamboo.

i suspect the HI might bend while incorrectly cutting thru a fridge. you could then pound it back into shape.

iato practice swords are generally duller than a butter knife so you don't accidentally cut anything. especially yourself.

not having been there at the HI shop, i do not know how much of the curvature is due to the quench, the result is much the same as if it were clayed, but not as consistant a technique due to variation in pouring from one to the next.

according to kanzan sato in 'the japanese sword', (pgs. 172/173 of the english version i have) the initial heating and hammering give the sword its curve and determines the general shape. the final shape is given by scraper and file. the tempering process adds a final extra natural curve, which if excessive, or causing the blade to bend can be corrected by hammer. if too shallow it can be corrected by bending it in a bronze clamp. sounds not unlike HI methods


the basic scabbards are as noted not designed for the ia-to quick draw.

as in any armed fight, the guy who draws first usually wins. that's why it's best to draw your weapon BEFORE you get to the fight. the moros would do that with their kris and barongs, and leave the scabbards behind as they advanced. if they won, they'd recover them, if they lost it didn't matter as they'd no longer need them. japanese tachi used during the warfare era were mounted & carried from a belt edge down much like western swords & were drawn before engaging in battles. the ia-to was developed for the sash carried edge up katana and the unarmoured samurai.

the fancier grade HI katana scabbards are wood or horn with a decorative pierced metal

if loose enough fit, they may allow for iato techniques.

after all the hype, the HI sword is a lot of bang for the buck.

 

[Karda]

not having been there at the HI shop, i do not know how much of the curvature is due to the quench, the result is much the same as if it were clayed, but not as consistant a technique due to variation in pouring from one to the next.

according to kanzan sato in 'the making of a japanese sword', (pgs. 172/173 of the english version i have) the initial heating and hammering give the sword its curve and determines the general shape. the final shape is given by scraper and file. the tempering process adds a final extra natural curve, which if excessive, or causing the blade to bend can be corrected by hammer. if too shallow it can be corrected by bending it in a bronze clamp. sounds not unlike HI methods

I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head,Kroncke.

I remember reading that the H.I katana is the result of reading and experimentation done by Master Kami Bura. Your quote of kanzan is pretty much how he does it. IIRC, he gives the whole blade a quench during the process to give it a natural curve, Tempers it and then differentially hardens the cutting edge.

The man is an amazing craftsman.

 

[Empire_ian]

Very interesting, Bura is indeed a great craftsman.

I still say that the polish on a Japanese sword, which takes weeks to put on cannot be matched, and I would like to point out that, while for most things, modern steel does just fine, the two steel method of the Japanese sword doesn't shake even when cutting bullets in half.

If nothing else, it is badass as hell.

For a good compassion in which they admit the strengths and weaknesses quite openly, you should check out that episode of weapon masters on military channel.

And really, saying that the HI one "might" bend cutting through a fridge is kind of an exaggeration. Nepalese style blades take plenty of edge damage and need to be sharpened just like anything else. I think the main reason why the Japanese sword is considered fragile is not because it actually is fragile, but because it is so beautiful.

You would not want to hammer on something that expensive unless you were a master. I mean, you shouldn't even sharpen it, it will mess with the polish.

My friend's Aikido sensei once cut through an entire plumbing system worth of old pipes with a single stroke, and in a highly publicized test, one katana was able to cut seven 50 caliber bullets in half before being smashed to peices.

I have no evidence other than my own impressions, but I doubt that a kettle hardened edge can be as bloodletting sharp as a Japanese sword's edge can be.

As for the tactics of drawing weapons, draw time is rendered almost completely irrelevant with practice. Cutting and putting his sword away an iaido sensei can often cut once per second. A battojutsu draw has the additional advantage of coming from an unknown direction, and being able to quick draw does not magically reduce your ability to draw normally, so when you get onto the battlefield it was, as you suggest, common procedure to draw your weapon before you immediately had to use it.

The bottom line:
A katana is not magic, only training can win a fight, however there are many special things about a Japanese sword which make it the symbolic and functional heart of a practitioner's martial art. Perhaps in this age, a thing that is more art than usefulness.

An HI katana should do fine, and can be used for things you would not want to risk your super expensive sword doing. It is also a well made sword in it's own right, but it is not THE sword.

 

[Karda]

I have no evidence other than my own impressions, but I doubt that a kettle hardened edge can be as bloodletting sharp as a Japanese sword's edge can be.

An HI katana should do fine, and can be used for things you would not want to risk your super expensive sword doing. It is also a well made sword in it's own right, but it is not THE sword.

You might want to rethink these statements...
I am fairly confident that if our old master kami was given proper time,fundage and license, he would come up with a katana that would be tough as nails and comparable to some of the finest japanese made ones,all with a teapot/differentially hardened edge.

At any rate, for now, i think you are comparing apples to oranges.

 

[kronckew]

european smiths also made edged weapons with hard steel edges and softer pattern welded cores and backs (the hamon on my dane axe in my avatar shows one example), the japanese refinements brought it to an artform. the japanese daisho was designed to cut unarmoured flesh and came into it's own in the late 16th century when it started to aquire it's more mystical and esoteric bushido aspects, replacing the one-handed tachi of earlier periods which were used more commonly for armoured horse warfare. there are references to tachi being deliberately dulled except for the first few inches in order to reduce the chances of failures due to nicks and armour impact overstressing the blade. would a daimyo carry an HI? no, would an ashigara or low level samurai? i think they might. HI blades do have soul.

i of course was exaggerating with the fridge reference just to make a point. HI swords are not recommended for chopping down trees or disposing of metal objects.

the sharpness of any steel sword depends on the chemistry, hardness & subsequent temper, edge geometry, grain structure and polish. wootz, bulat and certain other crucible monosteels used in the west for swords also have attained legendary status for their edge holding sharpness. the legend of richard meeting saladin and richard cutting an iron bar in half with his sword, and saladin replying by dropping a silk scarf onto the edge of his sa'if with said scarf falling in halves not only comments on western/islamic swords, but can serve as an allegory between the HI and japanese.

just don't think of a hardened steel bar or a thick silk scarf....

 

[Empire_ian]

You might want to rethink these statements...
I am fairly confident that if our old master kami was given proper time,fundage and license, he would come up with a katana that would be tough as nails and comparable to some of the finest japanese made ones,all with a teapot/differentially hardened edge.

At any rate, for now, i think you are comparing apples to oranges.

I agree about apples to oranges, and I agree that Kami Bura could probably make a blade as good if he really pulled out all the stops.

However, its not the smith that makes a sword sharp in the end, its the polisher, and the Japanese swords are polished for weeks. People dedicate their entire lives to the fine art of polishing swords in such a manner.

The polish is one of several things (some of them being just artistic) that separates all around badasses like bura from the more conservative (and expensive as hell) registered Japanese smiths.

Ultimately though, I think that a katana is a kind of silly choice for bura to make. The Tarwar is so much more an expression of the heavy cutter which is a kukiri maker's specialty.

 

[kronckew]

...

Ultimately though, I think that a katana is a kind of silly choice for bura to make. ...

nepal is not as isolated as one might think, internet, movies , TV do get there.

Bura gets influenced by movies. the katana is likely from his samurai movie phase.

the 'Movie model'

was his interpretation of the sword used by the black robed ardeth bey in the recent 'mummy' series, itself a hollywood interpretation of a yataghan. i personally would have preferred a more traditional yataghan, but many people have acquired, used and love the movie model on it's own merits. ditto for the kat. i personally like the hi tibetan sword.

the tarwar is cool, as are the other heavy cutters that they make, some of which are interpretations of other klewangs, parangs etc. from SE asia, etc.

interesting how these designs travel, the Bhairab

is apparently based strongly on the kopis used in the Alexander film.

(cheap pakistani SS decorator only version illustrated)

the kopis used in the alexander film was based strongly on the kopis from a well known aussie shop that gets it's blades made in se asia. this is mine in laminated 'damascus' steel with horn handle & bronze guard that i got in the summer of '05.

coming full circle i first saw the 'kopis' on Himalayan Imports website HERE (<-linky) and looked long and hard for one till i found the one above it was based on. the HI falcata was a bit overkill, it's huge compared to the Bhairab/Kopis. i'm saving the kopis for future use on zombies.

sometimes on these specials they let their artistic expression loose, i guess after the 3,923rd khuk they like doing something different on occasion.

 

[Empire_ian]

Well, but kopis and falcata are essentially larger cousin of the kukiri, I think my point stands.

 

[tyr_shadowblade]

nepal is not as isolated as one might think, internet, movies , TV do get there.

Bura gets influenced by movies. the katana is likely from his samurai movie phase.

the 'Movie model'

was his interpretation of the sword used by the black robed ardeth bey in the recent 'mummy' series, itself a hollywood interpretation of a yataghan. i personally would have preferred a more traditional yataghan, but many people have acquired, used and love the movie model on it's own merits.

I have been fortunate enough to acquire a pair of Movie Model khuks made by Bura and sharpened/refurbished by Steve Furguson. Very graceful lines for a khuk, and the sharpened top edge is a bonus -- how many double-edged khukris have you seen? It is a functional work of art based upon a non-functional Hollywood prop knife, and it is incredible. A straight up fighter durable enough to chop down a small tree. IMHO, one of HI's all time best designs. :thumbup: