My new view on linerlockers.

sph3ric pyramid

sph3ric pyramid

Joined
Jul 24, 2002
Messages
861
I have become totally disenchanted with linerlockers over the last hour or so. My experience follows:

I had just finishing up on my Outdoor Edge Magna, reprofiling the edge down to a 30 degrees, and had stowed away my equipment.

I was, at that point, lost in happiness, slicing away at pieces of paper, watching cleanly cut strips fall to the ground. I was thinking, at that point, that I now had a knife that would serve almost all of my working needs quite well, and was very satisfied with the knife.

Now, keep in mind that this knife is marketed as "...no ordinary pocketknife, but a solid workhorse to handle any outdoor cutting task." I had used the knife in many of my projects which involved working with cardboard, plastics, rubber, etc., yet I had done nothing which would have abused the lock in any way.

I was holding the open knife, blade up, and plopped myself down into a swiveling chair, and inadvertantly rapped the spine against the desk in front of me. And *?* ?! The (literally) bloody knife had closed on me and bit into my knuckle, leaving a clean gash which immediately started bleeding (the sucker was very, very sharp).

I was in shock for a few seconds, starting slack-jawed at my "solid workhorse". I then closed it, reopened the knife, and repeated the rapping against the desk, and the lock failed 6 out of 6 times.

All of this immediately led to my distrust of the liner locking mechanism. I tried spine-whacking my CRKT Mirage which was in the desk, and it held just fine, whereas the OE Magna which costs many times more, failed. Very disenchanting, to see the unpredictability of the mechanism first hand. Scary, too. Puts me out of my go-to folder for my tougher tasks. If I had been holding the knife in my regular "working" grip, the knife would have gone through my index finger.

:grumpy:*sph3ric grumbles*:mad:

Yeah. Dunno. Kind of in shock. I kinda liked that knife. Blah.
 
All too often the hype of marketing claims and the reality of design, are at odds. In this case you were a victim of both.

When I consider a knife purchase, I overlook the marketing, and closely inspect the design.

Cost and quality are not necessarily related.

Take care of that wound.
 
It looked solid, felt solid, even *sounded* solid, but reality is my bloody finger. There wasn't much I could have done to prevent it, other than actually spine-whacking the knife before putting it to use.

I suppose that's just one of the things that comes with purchasing a knife online, sight unseen. Come to think of it, even if I *had* seen it before hand, I wouldn't have been able to spine-whack it.
 
I won't even buy linerlocks anymore. I have not had any terrible experience with them, but have accidentally disengaged them when holding a knife edge up with my thumb natuarally resting on the area you disengage the lock put enough pressure to move the liner where the blade is no longer locked. When I went to back the blade out of the material I was cutting (an apple) it swumg toward my thumb. I have quite a few knives with liner locks and still use them. I use them with the same caution I use a slip joint folder and now have no problem with them. I don't think they have a place as a self defense or tactical knife though, just as slip joint folders don't either. The best lock in my opinion remains the standard lock back. It is a real shame more custom makers don't make these (and I bet many have never even tried). For the record, I have received one liner lock in the last year or more as a Christmas gift. It is the recent CRKT Lake model with the LAWKS that engages via the pocket clip. It is a neat knife, but way to chuncky for my hands, and it is not going to be a user. I just wanted a Lake knife in my collection.
 
Yes, I've had problems with liner locks. On Outdoor Edge, Timberline, CRKT, and other "cheaper" knives. I've never had a liner lock problem on a Microtech and I consider their Microbar lock as strong as a frame lock. Other strong liner locks are those on the higher end Spyderco's like the Military, and the Al Mar SERE 2000.

I believe liner locks that are well engineered and manufactured to close tolerances are reliable.
 
I've never had a linerlock fold up on me yet, but I don't like them all that much. I have a few, but I'm so much happier with my Axis locks and lockbacks. I doubt I'll ever buy another linerlock again. I'm sorry to hear about your bleeding knuckle, that is a painful way to learn that the lock on your knife isn't living up to your expectations.
 
The liner lock on my Spyderco Military is rock solid. In my opinion, it should be the industry standard by which all other locks of this type are to be judged.
 
I haven't ever had the experience of one failing that wasn't my fault. I had debris in my pocket and the knife became filthy.

I did like the LAWKS on the CRKT knives, but I rarely see anyone comment on it.
 
Sorry to hear about your injury, hope it heals quickly. Although I have never had a single reported accidental closure from customers ( each knife is tested for lock strength prior to shipment, I can explain my testing in depth for any who want it ), I have started using the fail safe lock, developed by Vince Ford of Spyderco for the military ( this is what I understand from Bob Terzoula's book ). Essentially a milling machine is use with a diamond core cutter, to grind the lock bevel on the blade. When this is done, a small lip is formed at the bottom of the lock bevel. When if suffcient pressure is applied to spine of the blade, and should it cause the lock to slip, the lock gets caught in the lip. To unlock the blade the lock has to be fully disengageed without any pressure on the blade. I have only been using this method for a short while, but my intial test pieces were quite extraoridinary ( I think so anyway ). I built one of my new spearpoint tacticals using the fail safe lock. T It survived 5 overpowered ( like swinging a baseball bat, in a90 degree arc ) spine whacks without any sign of accidental closure. Not happy with that, I took the knife and placed it edge down in the top of my grinding room door frame ( still havent gotten trim up :( ), so that the tip in the top of the frame, and the edge was supported by the shims and a piece of brass. I then hung off the handle ( I weigh 260 lbs ). Although the lock deformed thereby disabling the knife, it did not fail. When it deformed the leading inch or so of the lock bar was bent towards the right side of the lock bevel, effectively making it a fixed blade as I could not close it without dissasembly and unbending it. The bad news is that it severly damaged the lock bar and the pivot pin, the good news is that: it survived a brutal test; the chances of this sort of thing happening in real life are rare if not existant. This does not mean that I'm trying to claim I build the strongest folders in the world, that can be used as axes and prybars and other insane abuse, I don't and have nver claimed to, if you want that buy a good fixed blade. I build nice knives to be used for regular cutting chores that you expect a folder to do. My use of the fail safe lock is just to increase the saftey of an already good system ( which if the linerlock is built correctly, it is very safe ).

Back to point of the orginal post ( I do go on at times
:rolleyes: ), it could be a matter of bad luck, a bad knife that slipped through, I dont know but I hope you heal quickly. The linerlock is a very good locking system if certain "rules" are followed during construction. Unfortunatley I have seen many knives, both factory and handmades that didnt have the proper lock bevels, didnt seem to have sufficent spring strength, etc, that would fold up with minimal closing pressure on the back of the blade. As stated before, if I wanted that I'd use slipjoints more.

-- Charles
 
I also, hate liner locks. I only have one that I will use at all, and that is my Gerber Harsey Air Ranger - the only reason I'll use it is because it passed every test I could think to throw at it. Most don't.

Dan
 
sph3ric pyramid,

I just finished beating the spine of my Magna senseless against my desk to see if your claims applied to mine... no failure whatsoever.

Take note that I have dropped my magna, (accidentally) thrown it, accidentally slammed it against all kinds of stuff, and the lock on mine has NEVER failed.

My Advice? Contact Outdoor Edge, I think you may have a bum model... mine has been able to handle an outrageous amount of abuse, your's should too.
 
The failing of a lock may not be the fault of the design, but of the manufacturing.

Also knife aficianados need to be aware of the distinction between lock strength (how many lbs to break it) vs lock reliability (failure / defeat rate).

In the Strength area, the question, "What will you need? is important (stonger locks generally weigh more). In the reliability are, IMO, a zero failure rate is (or should be) the goal for a manufacturer (those that test).

sal
 
Hey Charles.................that wasn't MY spearpoint tactical you were testing wasit?:eek: :eek: ;) More and more I am looking forward to this spearpoint tactical you are building for me.:D :cool: :)
 
I'm starting to rethink buying liner locks myself.My LCC which I love btw,used to lock up all the way over on the left:) ,till one day I got some lube called Elbow Grease on the tang/lock area then it slid all the way to the right.:eek:

I had a Buck crosslock that would fail with a light slap to my hand,and I mean one that was nowhere near even a sting.

I have had 2 CQC7's that both failed with a spine whack about as hard as a "high 5" slap.Sold one as was able to re-set the other so it held from then on.

Some say the spine wack means little,to me it means the lock fails with little effort.

Lock backs and Axis,I have not had any trouble,and some of my liners are fine (so far)and the LCC I thought of as great,but if a little lube drips on the wrong place that changes everything.
 
Many manufacturers and makers sell liner locks and they don't really know how to make them properly. I have learned from speaking to some makers that liners locks aren't just a matter of cutting the metal and bending it over to mate up with the tang of the blade. This is an example of why many people don't trust liner locks. At the same time, I have never had a liner lcok fail on me while i was using it. Mainly because I did some research.
 
I have a CRKT m16le that has the LAWKS on it. I think this is abrilliant idea. I have never had the linerlock on it fail on me, but its just nice to know the LAWKS is there to save me. It's very simple, easy to use/engage, and is lightweight. If you have a problem w/ linerlocks, don't count these knives out(or any knives w/lawks), check them out. BTW, hope your knuckle gets better.:D :cool:
 
My first knife was a crkt m-16 and I loved its liner lock.

6 months passed, with my using it nearly every day. Now I push on the blade when it is open, and the liner lock slips allowing the blade to close about 5 degrees, apply a bit more pressure and the thing buckles.

If it had Lawks this would be a problem, but mine is one of the earlier version that was LAWKS free, and now the knife is almost useless. Very disappointed and I for one will not be purchasing any more liner locking folders. Liner locks seem to me to be the only locking mechanism which could possibly wear out this fast.

Now when I need to do heavy cutting I use my Spyderco Native. This lockback seems soo much more reliable to me. The framelock on my chive also seems to be vastly superior to any liner locks I've seen, If if the chive engages all the way over to the right, it looks as if it would still hold just fine.
 
The first liner lock that I owned was a BM CQC7. I got this knife when they first came out some years ago. I beat the hell out of this knife daily on the job, including using it as a pry bar a few times, and this thing never failed me. I have found a problem with EVERY CRKT liner lock that I have purchased or played with. I own an M18 and a KFF Pro. Every time I white knuckle these knives the liner lock disengages with the only thing stopping the knife from closing beng the LAWKS. IMO the LAWKS is a poor substitute for a decent liner lock. I have no trust in any production liner locks. I do trust my Microtech Amphibians locking bar, but also know that when that little coil spring goes, the lock is useless. I also like my BM 710, but that lock is reliant on a little spring also. IMO a solid lockback is the strongest folding knife. If I want a knife that I know is 100% not going to close on my knuckles, I will use a fixed blade. :D
 
Let me add a voice of reason here, linerlocks when built correctly, and kept clean,(free of lint and pocket crud)also remember to keep any type of dry residual lubricant off of the tang and lock, they're fine.

People made linerlocks popular because they liked the one hand opening convience, you always have trade offs, give up a back spring loose security.
 
"People made linerlocks popular because they liked the one hand opening convience, you always have trade offs, give up a back spring loose security."

One hand opening is/has been available on slip joints, lock backs, frame locks etc. for years. Being made with a liner lock has nothing to do with one hand opening. I really think liner locks became popular because that is the lock that was used/new/popular on the majority of all of the newest knives for the last 5 or so year period. This is what was available on the majority of all new folding knives and knife lovers want to buy new knives so liner locks were purchased.
 
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