my S30V theory

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Jun 12, 2006
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Let me start this thread by saying sorry if this has been posted before. I'd also like to state that I do love my S30V blades. OK here we go, about a week ago I picked up that 10$ radioshack lighted microscope and I love it. Anyways I know this has been beat to death, but I see that my mini manix is micro chipped, yeah yeah get on with it I know. I think S30V is such a great steel because it keeps on micro chipping with use, that means great working edge longer. What do you guys think. My mini manix is 18 per side and a 25 micro on it. Stropped on 1500 grit wet sand paper, then 2000 grit wet sand paper both on very hard foam blocks. Very Very sharp, and not a wire edge. Anyways I think it S30V stays sharper longer than most steels because of all the micro chipping in S30V blades. OK my ? to you, Am I out in left field, or does this make sense? PS sorry for all the spelling errors.:o :o
 
The one and only s30V knife that I had that chipped wasn't a positive, micro saw type chip. It was chips certainly large enough to see on the blade without a microscope. The blade was falling apart, not becoming serrated. I got my first chips opening a plastic bag of dog food type treats. A kind of wal mart "Lammy Whammy" dried lamb lungs.

I've not had any more knives with blades falling apart with S30V or any other steel. I now have at least 10 S30V blades giving me excellent service, no sign of chipping. I consider it an excellent steel now.

I have no idea why that particular blade behaved that way. I gave it away to a "relative" that never noticed or if he did, never said anything. The present status of that knife is unknown.

All my spyderco's are in excellent condition. I pride myself in using blades the way they are supposed to be used. All tools in fact. In 38 years of owning a knife I've never broken a tip, or anything except sharpening blades down to retirement times.

I only get down to the red stone on my DMT's with S30V as I like a toothy edge on it. ( grit on those unk?) VG10, BG42 I take a more polished edge on. Just my way of doing it. Joe
 
Joe, the red DMT is 25 micron. That is usually where I stop as well on S30V. The ZDP gets the 9 micron green DMT as well ;)
 
Anyways I think it S30V stays sharper longer than most steels because of all the micro chipping in S30V blades.

S30V has a high wear resistance which is where most of its performance comes from. Microchipping can in general provide long lasting slicing aggression through the sharpness will be very low.

-Cliff
 
My Mini Rukus takes and holds an ultra scary sharp edge (DMT ultra fine hone, chromium oxide stropping). No chipping so far tho' I haven't babied this blade. I could probably shave with it if I weren't concerned about slicing off an ear and not noticing that until later.
 
so-lo, have you sharpened the chipping blade enough times to remove any weak material left by factory sharpening? Your sharpening process is very conservative--that is a rather thick edge. I would not expect to see chipping unless you were cutting gritty material (like dirty carpet with grit in it). I would agressively sharpen the blade enough to cut down the blade width by about .01 to .02 inch. At that point I would expect a rather stable edge.
 
Joe, the red DMT is 25 micron. That is usually where I stop as well on S30V. The ZDP gets the 9 micron green DMT as well

Thank you brother. Kind of off topic: What aboutthe BG42. For gents knives I use the green w/strop. For harder use on the millie I've been using the red, but feel I could easily work BG steel with a higher polish without damage and with a slightly thinner edge than I run my S30 with. Can I get your opinion? Recall I don't dig except with shovels, pry without prybars etc.

Also, The Super Gold from the U2&3, TK3&4 etc? I haven't had to sharpen them yet mostly due to little use. Thanks much, Joe

P.S. I can't wait to try some 20CV against S30V & BG42. I desire their secrets.:)
 
I go really fine on honing BG-42. I finish by stropping on 1 micron to .25 micron diamond paste.
 
At 25 deg microbevel, you shouldn't see any microchipping. I realize that this is a bit lucky, but I haven't seen any more microchipping on my S30V blades than on blades out of a different steel at 12 deg per side with no micro bevel. Most of my edges show minor chipping (nothing that isn't removed during a few passes on the sharpmaker, often even only the sharpmaker whites) during use, regardless of the steel, though A2 seems to dent or roll more, but pretty much to the same extent and requiring about the same sharpening. My EDC edges seem to mostly blunt by occasional and accidental run-ins with something hard, usually at the first inch from the tip where I use the blade the most.

I often wonder a bit what people call microchipping. With a 100x microscope you can see a lot of irregularity at the edge that doesn't have necessarily anything to do with microchipping. If you look at a good Spyderco factory edge, it looks really toothy and wavy under the microscope. If you think about what 100x really means and do a quick napkin calculation, this comes as no surprise. You can resolve with your eye EASILY 0.2 mm (just take a caliper and set it to 0.2 mm, actually you can probably still resolve below 0.1 mm with the naked eye, so 0.2 mm is a very conservative estimate). At a magnification of 100x you can resolve 1/100 of that which is 2 micrometers. That is significantly BELOW the average carbide size of most stainless steels (the carbide size of D2 is 50 microns!). 2000 grit japanese waterstones (I am not too familiar with the US grit size) would correspond to about 7 micron particles. So at this magnification you are already looking at the minimum scratch sizes left by the abrasive which, if you think about, can leave an indentation at the edge of about twice that (intersecting scratches from both sides), meaning 14 microns. Usually at 100x, resolution is not the problem but rather lighting and depth of field.

As much as I recommend looking at the edge after and during use and sharpening to get a feel what is going on, I think sometimes people get (unnecessarily) spooked by what is possible to see at such a magnification. Even an edge that passes a fingernail test (sliding a fingernail down the edge for irregularities) may show some serious irregularities at 100x. Which is not to say that you couldn't produce an edge completely free of visible irregularities at 100x with sufficiently fine abrasives and some care.

When people complain about defective, microchipping S30V, what they usually describe is actually not really "micro-chipping" in the strict sense of the word anymore but rather "hundreds-of-micron chipping". You shouldn't need a 100x microscope to see that.
 
.... I think S30V is such a great steel because it keeps on micro chipping with use, that means great working edge longer. What do you guys think.
Depends on how you tend to use the knife and what kinds of materials you cut. IMO microchipping like you describe indicates poor edge stability .... and everything else being equal (of course it never is, but for sake of discussion) this isn't a desirable quality.

As Cliff pointed out "Microchipping can in general provide long lasting slicing aggression through the sharpness will be very low." If you're doing a lot of heavy, rough cutting - stuff like rope, glass reinforced packing tape, heavy plastic banding, etc. - then slicing aggression may be more important than sharpness. On the other hand if you need more precise, clean cutting of things like light cardboard and paper, wood and many plastics, then sharpness becomes more important.

Personally I prefer a blade that lets me decide, hence I give the nod to steels with better edge stability. Then I can use appropriate grit media to get slicing aggression if I need it.
 
HoB makes a very important point, things aren't important just because you can see them. Sometimes there are important things you can't see and trivial things that jump right out at you.
 
Wow, thanks for everything guys. I do cut a lot of hard things. I work in a auto bodyshop. I cut thick plastic bands, tons of real thick cardboard, 1/2 inch or better(the parts are wrapped in them), poke drain holes in the rims of paint cans, cut thick plastic bumpers off sometimes to get to bolts (I fix wrecked cars), I scrap pry and cut a lot of different things including 40 grit to 2000 grit sandpaper. So from what I'm hearing my sharping angles are about right for what I cut. HOB you made a ton of sence, I guess my "micro chipping" is not really micro chipping but rather the nature of the steel, I do have some real micro chipping at the tip (because I poke drain holes in the rims of paint cans a lot). You can see tiny chips with out any microscope. Thanks everyone and get the knowledge comin. O yeah I do sharpen about 2 times a week. Not really because its dull, more for not letting it get that way. (hello my name is Randy, and I beat my mini manix)
 
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