N690 and VG10, which one came out first?

superpog

superpog

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I recently heard some saying that VG10 was developed based on N690. However, per one of Larrin's articles, VG10 was developed in 1950s', is it possible that N690 is even earlier?
I did some search in the forum, the earliest mention of N690 is in 1999, which is probably close to the time the forum was founded. So I guess both N690 and VG10 are old steels, presumably older than the Internet, but any clue we can find to decide which of them is earlier than the other?
 
superpog said:
I recently heard some saying that VG10 was developed based on N690. However, per one of Larrin's articles, VG10 was developed in 1950s', is it possible that N690 is even earlier?
I did some search in the forum, the earliest mention of N690 is in 1999, which is probably close to the time the forum was founded. So I guess both N690 and VG10 are old steels, presumably older than the Internet, but any clue we can find to decide which of them is earlier than the other?
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KenHash said:
No idea about N690 but my understanding is that Takefu developed VG10 around 1956.
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My understanding matches that of KenHash.

I've seen VG-10 used for knife blades for significantly longer than I've seen N690 around.
 
Let's not forget that we start "hearing" about certain steels being used when -they start getting used. Steel choices in the knife industry are usually based not just on their existence and performance, but availability and cost effectiveness. VG10 was developed in the 1950s but did not become widely available for cutlery until the mid-late 1990s. Likewise, Bohler's N690 "may" have been around for a long time before we started hearing about it.
 
...And we worry when a supersteel was developed over 20 years ago...
 
I found a German patent from 1940 (though filed 1936) that mentions a steel that already existed with 0.8-1.2% C, 13-18% Cr, and "up to" 1% Mo, 0.5% V, and 3.5% Co. https://depatisnet.dpma.de/DepatisNet/depatisnet?action=pdf&docid=DE000000693146A&xxxfull=1

The patent also lists a composition that was analyzed at 0.94C-18.35Cr-0.6Mo-2.4Co-0.5V-1.4W. So there might be some kind of precursor steel that was developed in Europe. If I was better at foreign language patent searches I might be able to find it, as the fact that ranges are given probably indicates that it was taken from a previous patent. As a side note, the patent also mentions a "well known" stainless steel with 0.4-0.5%C, 14-15% Cr, and up to 0.5% Mo, which broadly fits the common 1.4116 stainless. That is earlier than I had previously seen that steel.
 
Larrin said:
I found a German patent from 1940 (though filed 1936) that mentions a steel that already existed with 0.8-1.2% C, 13-18% Cr, and "up to" 1% Mo, 0.5% V, and 3.5% Co. https://depatisnet.dpma.de/DepatisNet/depatisnet?action=pdf&docid=DE000000693146A&xxxfull=1

The patent also lists a composition that was analyzed at 0.94C-18.35Cr-0.6Mo-2.4Co-0.5V-1.4W. So there might be some kind of precursor steel that was developed in Europe. If I was better at foreign language patent searches I might be able to find it, as the fact that ranges are given probably indicates that it was taken from a previous patent. As a side note, the patent also mentions a "well known" stainless steel with 0.4-0.5%C, 14-15% Cr, and up to 0.5% Mo, which broadly fits the common 1.4116 stainless. That is earlier than I had previously seen that steel.
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OMG, I am speechless now.. that’s from WWII, indeed earlier than VG10. Thanks Larrin!
 
superpog said:
OMG, I am speechless now.. that’s from WWII, indeed earlier than VG10. Thanks Larrin!
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I think you are jumping to conclusions here. Larrin states that he found a steel patented in Germany the 1940s with a composition that suggests that it may be a precursor to Bohler N690. This is not conclusive evidence, such as Bohler of Austria introducting or patenting N690.
 
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KenHash said:
I think you are jumping to conclusions here. Larrin states that he found a steel patented in Germany the 1940s with a composition that suggests that it may be a precursor to Bohler N690. This is not conclusive evidence, such as Bohler of Austria introducting or patenting N690.
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Right, it's not an evidence with regard to when N690 actually came out. However, at this point, my original doubt -- "is it possible that N690 is even earlier" -- is somewhat resolved. Or I could rephrase that doubt to "is it possible that VG10 might have referenced some older steel's composition?". And the answer is yes. It could be that when Takefu invented VG10, they were not aware of this patent, but clearly they are not the first to figure out this composition.

While we still don't know when N690 came out, it could be even earlier than this WW2 German patent, but one thing for sure is that if N690 referenced some earlier steel composition, it doesn't have to be VG10.

Without further evidence, I am leaning toward N690 is also later than this patent and both N690 and VG10 are under the influence of this patent or even some earlier ones precede this patent.
 
Ok. You are certainly free to jump to any conclusion you like. But may I enquire just how this information has any bearing on one's knife purchase decisons? Or is it simply a matter of curosity?
 
KenHash said:
Ok. You are certainly free to jump to any conclusion you like. But may I enquire just how this information has any bearing on one's knife purchase decisons? Or is it simply a matter of curosity?
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Of course this has nothing to do with knife purchase decisions. This is simply a curiosity wrt knife steel history.
 
It's always fascinating to discover how long various materials that are common in knives today (or in the fairly recent past) have been around. Micarta dates back to the 1910s-teens (iirc), Bakelite (not so popular now but used extensively in kitchen knife handles a few decades back) came out just after 1900, and D2 steel was first patented in the late 1920s (1927 if memory serves), just for a few examples. 👍
 
Found some alternates from another company. They were listed in the same 1936 book I linked above but the specific compositions are only found in the 1945 edition.
Remanit 1540: 0.4C-15Cr-0.2Mo
Remanit 1790: 0.9C-17Cr-1.0Mo
Remanit 1790C: 0.9C-17Cr-0.5Mo-0.3V-1.5Co

The last of course looks very much like N690, or perhaps the “440B” version of it rather than the “440C” version.
 
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