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Nagamori Nihonto Katana.... what do you think?
- Thread starter Ed Vizard
- Start date
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2006
- Messages
- 5,191
i think its odd the description speaks much about the blade, but the photos are mostly of the koshirae. claims it was appraised for a large sum, but does not disclose who appraised it, or if a written appraisal is included with it. if the sword was carried in battle, even if it was not used there would be some normal wear on the koshirae, it would not be pristine. personally i would not spend over 2 grand on something that has no papers.
Kohai999
Second Degree Cutter
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2003
- Messages
- 12,554
Three things stand out.....
1. If the sword is from the 1400's, the nakago should be all kinds of patina'd/rusted. There should be SERIOUS color on that tang, instead it is a soft grey. Polishing of the tang on ANY Japanese sword is strictly a no-no.
2. The mei does not look "right". They are cut in carefully with chisels, deeply cut at that. This one looks surface, and not done with chisels.
3. Woodrow "Woody" Hall is a student of Robert "Bob" Benson who is perhaps the most well known gaijin polisher at this point. Two swordmakers in the U.S., Michael Bell and Francis Boyd learned to make swords from a Japanese polisher named Nakajima Muneyoshi(this as an aside). A polisher MAY have a belief that a sword should have shinsa qualifications, but until that puppy is papered, it is a crapshoot.
Those are my thoughts.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
1. If the sword is from the 1400's, the nakago should be all kinds of patina'd/rusted. There should be SERIOUS color on that tang, instead it is a soft grey. Polishing of the tang on ANY Japanese sword is strictly a no-no.
2. The mei does not look "right". They are cut in carefully with chisels, deeply cut at that. This one looks surface, and not done with chisels.
3. Woodrow "Woody" Hall is a student of Robert "Bob" Benson who is perhaps the most well known gaijin polisher at this point. Two swordmakers in the U.S., Michael Bell and Francis Boyd learned to make swords from a Japanese polisher named Nakajima Muneyoshi(this as an aside). A polisher MAY have a belief that a sword should have shinsa qualifications, but until that puppy is papered, it is a crapshoot.
Those are my thoughts.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
NihontoEd
Gold Member
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2011
- Messages
- 690
This one is a definite crap shoot! But the OP seems hell bent on it, I have seen it here, SFI, and FB, looking for positive recognition.
Edit: Quick thought , maybe he is the seller, not an interested party seeking advise ????
Here is my post from SFI:
Both the e-bay write-up and the one in the photograph state that there are "Fukure". One states "much Fukure", but I wonder if he meant Fumbari ??
The write up from Japanese swords ltd., states minor shinogi ware/fukure" and "2 long Mune ware/fukure" Long mune ware/fukure are flaws and not a good thing.
While mentioned (if you know the terminology), these flaws are not shown anywhere in the photos (1st red flag).
Another flag in my opinion is in the write up it states that it wasnt sent to shinsa for papers. Not to say that this is not true, but perhaps it was never sent by the seller. Considering that IMHO there is a fairly high probability that the signature is gimei (Forgery), could be another reason it has no papers. It could have failed shinsa in the past or perhaps someone recognized the possibility that it would fail if submitted today.
My opinion of there being a good probability of gimei is not without rationale. First, in my opinion it is poorly cut and just doesnt feel right. Secondly and perhaps most importantly, I could not find one example of these smiths signing as the one in question is signed, Hoshu Takada Ju Tiara Nagamori, nor did most, if any use this mori character 守.
The Bizen Nagamori smiths used that Kanji character much more extensively; Bishū Osafune Nagamori 備州長船長守
And while there are some Bungo smiths listed as using this mori character 守, I could not find any examples:
平長守 Taira Nagamori
永守作 Nagamori Saku
Most Oshigata I found showed the use of this mori character 盛. The highest rated Bungo Nagamori (20pts), the first generation, used this character, as did the second and third.
豊州平長盛 Hōshū Taira Nagamori
豊後高田住永盛 Bungo Takata ju Nagamori
豊後國高田住平永盛作 Bungo Kuni Takata Ju Taira Nagamori Saku
As well, several Bungo smiths from the same time period, signed using different Kanji for both the Naga and Mori characters:
永盛作 Nagamori Saku
Perhaps someone else can find and provide additional information and/or an oshigata of one signed exactly as the one in question, but I could not.
Now, I do not claim to be an expert, which is why I would would never make a claim as absolute. And I am not even in the same ball park as the Shinsa Teams.
However, there are too many discrepancies on this one.
This is merely my opinion, it and $5 will get you a coffee most places.
Edit: Quick thought , maybe he is the seller, not an interested party seeking advise ????
Here is my post from SFI:
Both the e-bay write-up and the one in the photograph state that there are "Fukure". One states "much Fukure", but I wonder if he meant Fumbari ??
The write up from Japanese swords ltd., states minor shinogi ware/fukure" and "2 long Mune ware/fukure" Long mune ware/fukure are flaws and not a good thing.
While mentioned (if you know the terminology), these flaws are not shown anywhere in the photos (1st red flag).
Another flag in my opinion is in the write up it states that it wasnt sent to shinsa for papers. Not to say that this is not true, but perhaps it was never sent by the seller. Considering that IMHO there is a fairly high probability that the signature is gimei (Forgery), could be another reason it has no papers. It could have failed shinsa in the past or perhaps someone recognized the possibility that it would fail if submitted today.
My opinion of there being a good probability of gimei is not without rationale. First, in my opinion it is poorly cut and just doesnt feel right. Secondly and perhaps most importantly, I could not find one example of these smiths signing as the one in question is signed, Hoshu Takada Ju Tiara Nagamori, nor did most, if any use this mori character 守.
The Bizen Nagamori smiths used that Kanji character much more extensively; Bishū Osafune Nagamori 備州長船長守
And while there are some Bungo smiths listed as using this mori character 守, I could not find any examples:
平長守 Taira Nagamori
永守作 Nagamori Saku
Most Oshigata I found showed the use of this mori character 盛. The highest rated Bungo Nagamori (20pts), the first generation, used this character, as did the second and third.
豊州平長盛 Hōshū Taira Nagamori
豊後高田住永盛 Bungo Takata ju Nagamori
豊後國高田住平永盛作 Bungo Kuni Takata Ju Taira Nagamori Saku
As well, several Bungo smiths from the same time period, signed using different Kanji for both the Naga and Mori characters:
永盛作 Nagamori Saku
Perhaps someone else can find and provide additional information and/or an oshigata of one signed exactly as the one in question, but I could not.
Now, I do not claim to be an expert, which is why I would would never make a claim as absolute. And I am not even in the same ball park as the Shinsa Teams.
However, there are too many discrepancies on this one.
This is merely my opinion, it and $5 will get you a coffee most places.
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2015
- Messages
- 1,290
I know this is coming in late on this. Here is my two cents. Without showing a certificate of authenticity, NOPE. also I have some friends in China that own a forge. I can have one of these made for every one of you all for about 100$ each. He will even age the parts for you as well. Last words of wisdom, never purchase anything from what someone says it is without papers to prove it. Of course if you are buying it straight from the person that made it, then sure. From my experience in China, they can make anything, and make anything look real.
Triton
Gold Member
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2000
- Messages
- 35,917
I would add to this and say that if you don't know enough about high end katana to the point where you are asking random strangers for opinions on an internet forum to inform yourself for a multi-thousand dollar decision it might be wise to not make the purchase but instead more time in study.
This is not a dig at the OP, just my opinion that if you have to ask you probably shouldn't own...
NihontoEd
Gold Member
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2011
- Messages
- 690
I am pretty sure that the sword in question is a legitimate Japanese sword.
Only the mei or signature looks gimei or false to me. To forge a signature is not an uncommon occurrence in Japanese swords.
Genuine Japanese swords can be purchased without "papers". The key is to avoid snake pits like e-bay and buy from reputable, established dealers.
Not to say there are no reputable dealers on e-bay, because there are. However, if you are a novice, you risk a higher chance of being burned by what seems like a deal to good to be true.
Triton is correct: study more, buy less until you have become more knowledgeable. If you have to own a sword, seek a reputable dealer.
Also, keep in mind that Japanese swords are not cheap ! Those deals which seem too good to be true, probably are.
Outside of Japan we tend to rely too much on "papers". Papers are a good safety net for beginners, and a marketing tool for sellers, yet they are only an opinion and they are not guaranteed.
Only the mei or signature looks gimei or false to me. To forge a signature is not an uncommon occurrence in Japanese swords.
Genuine Japanese swords can be purchased without "papers". The key is to avoid snake pits like e-bay and buy from reputable, established dealers.
Not to say there are no reputable dealers on e-bay, because there are. However, if you are a novice, you risk a higher chance of being burned by what seems like a deal to good to be true.
Triton is correct: study more, buy less until you have become more knowledgeable. If you have to own a sword, seek a reputable dealer.
Also, keep in mind that Japanese swords are not cheap ! Those deals which seem too good to be true, probably are.
Outside of Japan we tend to rely too much on "papers". Papers are a good safety net for beginners, and a marketing tool for sellers, yet they are only an opinion and they are not guaranteed.