Natural temper over time?

jaegar

jaegar

Joined
Nov 5, 2004
Messages
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Cabelas just opened here in Buda Tx. I haven't been there yet but I browsed the website. I ran across a bowie that they claimed was handmade. It caught my attention, and here is what I found:


Handmade Stag Handled Knife
Handcrafted by a former blacksmith and horseshoer, these Skinner and Bowie knifes are carved from whitetail or mule deer antler and hand-polished from butt to tip. Each knife is a work of art, cut, formed and sharpened by hand with a lifetime of knife-making knowledge. Blades are cut from the same kind of metal as old circular sawmill blades, then ground on a water-cooled wheel to preserve the natural tempers gained as the blades aged. Genuine Stag handles, no two are alike. Distinctively beautiful as the animal from which they came. We've added a brass pin through the handle. Deer head hand-scrimshawed on hunting knife handle.

Would someone please explain that bit about natural tempers? I've NEVER heard of that! Right now I'm REAL skeptical.
Thanks,
~Brian
 
Brian, it means in this case that the steel is recycled and has already been hardened and tempered for it's original use. The part about "aging" is dubious and I'd love to hear their justification for that statement, too. The maker is grinding them "cold" so as not to overheat and lower the hardness. Folder blades are often done that way.
 
jaegar said:
then ground on a water-cooled wheel to preserve the natural tempers gained as the blades aged.
Click to expand...

Assuming this is not complete BS...

Most of the time, as I understand it, there is some residual austenite left in a heat-treated part even after it is tempered, and even when it's done very carefully. Over time (decades), the retained austenite slowly completes its transformation until the part is almost 100% martensite. This is good for cutting tools because it makes the edge less susceptible to the "microchipping" that can accelerate wear. If you have an old knife which seems to work better than a newer, comparable knife, that may have something to do with it.

The whole point of cryogenic processing is to accelerate that aging process so that it takes a couple days rather than several decades or more. So, I'll bet you those blades don't cut any better than a knife with well-done HT and cryo.

So, maybe there's some merit in what they're saying. On the other hand they're not saying "made from old saw blades," they're saying "the same kind of metal as old circular sawmill blades." I can't help but get suspicious about that.

-Allin
 
The part about the retained austenite occured to me finally, too, Allin. Just a lttile slower, obviously... hehe

I am suspicious, though, because old saw steel wouldn't have been the type of stuff where that was desired, because one doesn't want to have something spinning get brittle with age.
 
i always figured that the old saw blades generated high heat everytime they are used to cut lumber, and since the were used for year and years, and just got resharpened, it must have been tempered a couple thousand times.
 
That's a good point. Thanks. You and Allin are making me think, and I appreciate that.
 
The most important factor is that these blades are only saw-blade hard (or if overheated in use, they are less than saw-blade hard). Wood saw blades have a variety of core hardnesses, but I'd guess that they don't get much into the 50's. My first guess would be that they were in the upper 40's. This would make a hell of a tough knife, but the edge holding would not be great. The other problem is that saw blade steel is made to be tough by making it ductile. I would expect these blades to form very tenacious burrs when sharpened. I've got an old saw blade knife and it gave me a lot of trouble with burrs. You might want a big chopper out of this steel, but you wouldn't want it for your hunting knife.
 
Don't we have any blademakers from Missouri who can come on the forum and say "SHOW ME " ?
 
This is for Mete

SHOW ME

I don't know what that does, but thought I would do what the man said
 
High carbon steel does age harden. The older and rustier it gets, the harder it gets.

Try resetting the teeth on an old hand saw. The teeth break off instead of bending. Setting the teeth on a new blade is easy. ;)
 
mete said:
Don't we have any blademakers from Missouri who can come on the forum and say "SHOW ME " ?
Click to expand...
Funny you ask. The knives in question are made here in Missouri by Ken Richardson and family near Salem MO :p They have been making them for 20 years or more. They used to make them out of old saw blades but demand was so high they had to start buying the steel new and heat treated, most likely bandsaw steel. They supply Cabelas and Bass Pro, UPS backs up to there shop door every day, they turn out a huge number of knives. I made knives from old saw blades for 7 or 8 years but I heat treated them, (around 300 per year) they made fine knives. The original temper of saw steel is a little to soft for good edge holding, I checked some and they were in the mid to upper 40s. Danbo probably remembers the old saw steel knives I used to make, I think he bought a couple 10 or so years ago. Hope this helps.

Don Hanson lll
 
thanks for all the replies. I was pretty sure it was bogus at first, but these explinations make sense. still skeptical about the 'same steel as' part. Is it or isn't it? :rolleyes:
anyway...
Mr. Robinson,
still working on the barlow as time allows. I have all the necessary materials, and the blades are half-ground out. I apologize I won't meet the deadline. :( I'll post some pictures of the WIP but it won't be much. I was kinda hoping to finish it by the end of july and show it to you in person at the Central Texas knife show. If I'm able to work on it, It would likely be gone for heat treat at that time unfortunately. I'll still do my best to complete it, and I haven't forgotten, Just been real busy lately and haven't had much time to work. Again, my apologies for letting you down.
~Brian
 
The original post said natural tempers as gained as the blades aged.What can happen is that retained austenite can change to martensite [ untempered therefore brittle ] though in this case it's doubtful since it's apparently fairly low carbon where you wouldn't expect retained austenite. Natural tempers I assume means here heat treating as a whole and the hardness achieved. If we take temper in the proper sense [ to temper martensite ] changes would be very slow indeed !
 
jaegar said:
thanks for all the replies. I was pretty sure it was bogus at first, but these explinations make sense. still skeptical about the 'same steel as' part. Is it or isn't it? :rolleyes:
anyway...
Mr. Robinson,
still working on the barlow as time allows. I have all the necessary materials, and the blades are half-ground out. I apologize I won't meet the deadline. :( I'll post some pictures of the WIP but it won't be much. I was kinda hoping to finish it by the end of july and show it to you in person at the Central Texas knife show. If I'm able to work on it, It would likely be gone for heat treat at that time unfortunately. I'll still do my best to complete it, and I haven't forgotten, Just been real busy lately and haven't had much time to work. Again, my apologies for letting you down.
~Brian
Click to expand...

You haven't let me down, Brian. I'm proud of you for even attempting to build a barlow folder without prior folder experience. :)

I surely do hope you get it finished before the show. Be sure to post your WIP in the barlow thread anyway.

I'd really enjoy meeting you and seeing your folder at the show. :D

Best wishes.
 
I have seen the same thing over the years in the Cabela's catalog...I think it MAY be a play on words, so to speak....notice it says "Blades are cut from the same kind of metal as old circular sawmill blades". This is NOT sawmill blades, but "the SAME KIND of metal"...

Read closely....it caught my eye the first time I read it....makes me wonder what it truely may be with respect to blade steel.

Oh well, my two cents worth.
 
and it does not say they are made of saw blade steel, only that they are of the same steel used to make saw blades

RL
 
Some of the best old saw blades were made of L6 steel, and properly hardened and tempered, that makes a very good knife.

The knives you're talking about may be made of L6. :confused:
 
The confusing thing is the description of using water-cooled grinding to preserve some original temper. That makes it sound like saw blade steel at first hearing. Maybe it is made from cold rolled sheet and they want to maintain the cold working hardness from the rolling process.
 
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