Need advice on fitting UK motor to US made grinder.

C_Claycomb

C_Claycomb

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Dec 11, 2000
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*Update 28 June 2021* If the thread is too long, the conclusion was that it would cost more to make the UK motor fit than to order a US motor, from the US.....:(. I have now ordered such a motor and will be on tenterhooks for the next few weeks until it arrives and I get it working.

I doubt many here have had this problem, but what the heck, there is a lot of expertise here and someone might have a good suggestion.

I live in the United Kingdome and am looking to buy a new belt grinder. I don't want to DIY build one. Looked at lots of options, read lots of reviews, decided that I want a Reeder Products machine with a bunch of their accessories. Contacted Reeder and good news, they will ship to the UK! 🥳

The UK uses 240V at 50Hz and my understanding of everything I have read (which was enough to o_O me) is that I will at the very least be sacrificing top speed if I try to use a US spec motor and VFD designed for 220V at 60Hz. It would suck to have over $1000 of motor and controller shipped from the US and for it not to work at 100%.

The Reeder is set to use NEMA 56C, which has a 4.5" (114.3mm) location register diameter, four 3/8 clearance mounting holes on a 5.875" (149.23mm) PCD and a 5/8th shaft. The problem is that motors available here use IEC size interface, the most appropriate looking units use a B14 interface which has a 95mm location diameter, 115mm bolt PCD and a 24mm diameter shaft.

Greg at Reeder has said he can bore one of their 5" drive wheels with a 24mm bore, but while I didn't explicitly ask about machining a different interface, I opened the door and think Greg sounded pretty set that their grinder uses the NEMA56C. As the plate is CNC milled, I can imagine that it would be a PITA to do something different as a one-off.

Does leave me scratching my head on how to proceed. I did look for motors designed for the UK electrics that used NEMA interface, but such things do not appear to exist. Any advice or suggestions, whether it be on motor choice or adapters would be useful.

The alternatives I thought of to fit a UK motor were:

NEMA - B14 by Last Scratch, on Flickr
  1. Get a thin ring made that fills the radial space between motor and grinder location diameters. Drill four more holes on smaller PCD in grinder chassis to use M8 motor mounting points. Holes will partially cut through locating diameters. Probably the cheapest and possibly something I could do myself
  2. Back the motor off the grinder by about 3/8th (9mm) left and find UK engineering company to make a full adapter plate that locates motor on one side and grinder on other, screw adapter to motor face with counter sunk M8 screws. Thread holes in adapter to line up with existing holes in grinder, maybe use M8 and spacer sleeves in grinder chassis, rather than trying to use/source 3/8-16 UNC hardware that chassis holes sized for. Problem may occur with insufficient shaft length available to engage drive wheel.
  3. Full rework of chassis plate, probably involve stripping down to flat plate, find UK engineering company, plug existing locating diameter and re-cut. Hope everything lines up and nothing else gets damaged. Not sure how such a large area would get plugged, but I am thinking JB-Weld might be involved 😟
Thanks folks!!

Chris
 
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It might be a long shot, but I can't imagine that another grinder from Europe wouldnt be more convenient.

Claryx is the first that comes to mind for a full package.
 
If you are using a VFD, the mains frequency is irrelevant. The VFD doesn’t really care what the input frequency is: it rectifies to DC in the input stage, then uses PWM to construct the output wave-form from D.C. The hassle is the motor. We’ve been using IEC metric motors in the U.K. for about 50 years.

Though there are still Imperial 56-frame motors available here, they are usually around 2-3times the cost of equivalent metric motors. They tend to be available for replacing dead motors on old British machinery and North American machinery, where the extra cost of the “odd” motor is often much less than modifications to fit a metric motor.

If you can get the machine with a quality 3-phase motor from the supplier, that might be your best bet.
 
H Hubert S.
Speed is the technical issue that jumped out from reading discussions of running 60Hz motors at 50Hz. Other issue is the final cost of motor and drive from Reeder, after they are shipped to the UK. I need to price up drives, so far only looked at motors. On the face of it, transatlantic shipping cost of a 40+lb motor plus the drive, and the 2% import duty, and the 20% tax which is at levied on the goods and import duty all makes a US spec motor (never mind drive) work out at very expensive in comparison to locally sourcing. Then if there are any electrical faults on imported equipment, support is going to be harder and more expensive.
 
Hello T timgunn1962 2
I have been reading a lot of your posts! Thank you for taking so much time explaining the ins and outs of motors and VFDs. I was pretty sure that I saw posts on engineering sites that described problems or limits imposed using a 50Hz input frequency. I will need to dig around and try to find those references again. I was looking at IP55 and IP65 rated motors from TEC and Brook Compton, and they came out at around £280-£300 (around $400) whereas the Leeson and drive shipped with the Reeder looks like it adds around $1600 altogether.
 
I have a European motor on my grinder, and the only issue I ran into was that I could not find a drive wheel with a metric bore size. Mine is a large motor, so it's close to 7/8 bore, but not quite. I tried a few dumb ideas, and the dumb idea that I ended up going with, was shimming it with a thin piece of metal around the entire diameter of the shaft. I went around the house measuring various things with calipers, and found that my tuna can had just thr right thickness, so that's what I used! :D

Now my wobble issues are gone.

I have a KBAC VFD, and my only issue I run into is that if I go over about 95% speed, the motor starts to whine. Perhaps this has to do with the frequencies? (I'm also running the jumper which doubles the RPM's.).

I've been running this setup for years now and it has worked fine for me. My motor is a 3 phase, 3 HP monster.
 
FredyCro said:
It might be a long shot, but I can't imagine that another grinder from Europe wouldnt be more convenient.

Claryx is the first that comes to mind for a full package.
Click to expand...
Hi FredyCro, :)
I have been using my Coote grinder for 14 years and would hope that my new grinder will last at least that long. Cost and value matters some, but convenience is kind of a short term motivator for me.

A big factor in looking at US grinders is that I have US $ funds that I was saving for a huge multi-month US road trip which was to have happened in 2020 or 2021. Those plans have had to be postponed indefinitely and from what the news says about inflation it seems like I should use the money for something tangible rather than just letting it sit and lose value.

Not that I didn't consider grinders from closer to home. I looked at the Claryx and didn't like its mounting base. All the weight of chassis pivoting on this little bracket. It allows the grinder to tip forward or spin, as well as tilt horizontal and I have visions of it vibrating and moving after it has had years of use. I looked at another four or five UK and EU grinder makers and they all had something I didn't like, materials, or finish, lack of functionality and accessories, too much functionality, or how solidly they were designed. I also looked at Wuertz, which I had lusted after for years, Northridge, Hardcore, Pheer, and Outlaw Water Jet Design. Probably some other makers too, they did all start to blur a little! The Reeder had all the features I wanted, I liked their design philosophy, the construction method and materials and the amount of information they have put out about their grinders.
 
C_Claycomb said:
Hi FredyCro, :)
I have been using my Coote grinder for 14 years and would hope that my new grinder will last at least that long. Cost and value matters some, but convenience is kind of a short term motivator for me.

A big factor in looking at US grinders is that I have US $ funds that I was saving for a huge multi-month US road trip which was to have happened in 2020 or 2021. Those plans have had to be postponed indefinitely and from what the news says about inflation it seems like I should use the money for something tangible rather than just letting it sit and lose value.

Not that I didn't consider grinders from closer to home. I looked at the Claryx and didn't like its mounting base. All the weight of chassis pivoting on this little bracket. It allows the grinder to tip forward or spin, as well as tilt horizontal and I have visions of it vibrating and moving after it has had years of use. I looked at another four or five UK and EU grinder makers and they all had something I didn't like, materials, or finish, lack of functionality and accessories, too much functionality, or how solidly they were designed. I also looked at Wuertz, which I had lusted after for years, Northridge, Hardcore, Pheer, and Outlaw Water Jet Design. Probably some other makers too, they did all start to blur a little! The Reeder had all the features I wanted, I liked their design philosophy, the construction method and materials and the amount of information they have put out about their grinders.
Click to expand...

I see. I am interested how you are going to solve the problem, on the osg sayber forum should be a drawing of someone who moded the sayber grinder from 56c motor to a b14. If you don't find it, I can have a look on my comp.

Reeder is definetly good looking, so I understand your choice. For sure it would best if they could source you a 3 phase motor with a guarantee. Buying something new and than having to mod it sounds like a PITA.
 
FredyCro said:
I see. I am interested how you are going to solve the problem, on the osg sayber forum should be a drawing of someone who moded the sayber grinder from 56c motor to a b14. If you don't find it, I can have a look on my comp.

Reeder is definetly good looking, so I understand your choice. For sure it would best if they could source you a 3 phase motor with a guarantee. Buying something new and than having to mod it sounds like a PITA.
Click to expand...
Hi,
Thanks for the steer. As I hadn't been looking at home building I didn't run across the OSG forum before. I ran a search for "B14" and got hits on three threads. What they were working on was changing the holes in the chassis design to suite the B14 interface. Didn't find a drawing of that interface, but that was okay since there are enough technical data sheets to understand sizes if you are cutting from scratch. Main problems they had were with concerns over location of the terminal box.

At work I have drawn up about half a dozen adapter plates to fit motors up to about 20lb to a dynamometer test rig, so that was the way my mind tended to lean as a default. In those cases, the dyno was sized to have plenty of clearance between different rings of mounting holes. Also there was no penalty associated with shaft position relative to mounting face since we used couplings and a sliding base.
 
I had a Coote grinder, it was awesome for reverse grinding (two wheel), unique and totally worth it. Will order another one soon. Had a Northridge, fantastic machine, perfection, really. Currently running a brick shithouse direct-drive KMG classic with DC motor, does a stellar job. Used a TW-90 to make a sword blade, it was amazing, very unique in a good way. You get what you pay for, I say!
 
So my "Dumb Question" is why not just get the "Local" motor mounting hole sizes/locations and see if they might be able to make the "Adapter" parts here in the U.S before shipping it to you ??
the motor mount is #1 problem to you it sounds like, but yes the Drive wheel will also become a "issue" so you will likely need a "Non Standard " bore diameter on that as well..

You could also look into more of the Build yourself stuff where you put everything together based off what Motor/drive etc you can find "Locally"
if it were me id just spend the extra $$$ and buy the thing already done .. maybe get a spare motor just in case one day the current one on the machine dies..
 
C_Claycomb said:
I doubt many here have had this problem, but what the heck, there is a lot of expertise here and someone might have a good suggestion.

I live in the United Kingdome and am looking to buy a new belt grinder. I don't want to DIY build one. Looked at lots of options, read lots of reviews, decided that I want a Reeder Products machine with a bunch of their accessories. Contacted Reeder and good news, they will ship to the UK! 🥳

The UK uses 240V at 50Hz and my understanding of everything I have read (which was enough to o_O me) is that I will at the very least be sacrificing top speed if I try to use a US spec motor and VFD designed for 220V at 60Hz. It would suck to have over $1000 of motor and controller shipped from the US and for it not to work at 100%.
Click to expand...

You do realize that the US motor is most likely a 2-phase motor at 220V ? Meaning that if you use it as a single phase motor in the UK, you will not be able to ground it. Not very safe generally, and the chassis might carry 110V once you connect it to the UK grid, depending on how the motor is built ....

Roland.
 
Pinoy Knife,
I find that there is a UK supplier of what I think is the same Leeson NEMA 56C motor that is usually supplied with the grinder. Factoring in shipping, tax and support if there is a problem, it makes sense to buy here rather than ship a motor with the grinder from the US. That said, the Leeson motor is still very expensive by comparison to the IEC alternative. £650 for the Leeson,, £250 for a Brook Crompton IEC 90L B14. I don't yet know whether the Leeson is like a Rolls Royce of motors...but I probably don't need more than Ford level quality. An extra £400 on a motor is a lot, even if the alternative is messing around with an adapter.

Ferider,
Thank you for the advice. I had not heard of 2-phase and as near as I can tell, it isn't used anymore. I am looking at 3-phase dual voltage motors, the Leeson motor show the lower of two voltages as 230V and 60Hz. As I will be using a VFD, as I now understand it, frequency doesn't matter so much since the VFD can take the 50Hz supply and increase it. The mains here is actually 240V, although most appliances are marked 230V, which is within the +10% the motor is rated for. The chassis will be grounded. If the motor were not to have that facility (which I have every reason to think it does), I would attach a ground wire to the grinder chassis. That at least is something I know about from work. :)

All that assumes I go with the expensive Leeson ;)

Would love to know why they are as expensive as they are.
 
The Leeson motors are not super expensive here the Baldor motors are .. they are like 1.5 times a Leeson !!!
basically my advise is/was to see what the difference is in the Europe motor compared to the U.S one if it is just a bigger/smaller diameter that becomes a easy "Fix" by making or buying a doughnut like ring to take up the difference.. the challenge if you will is keeping the motor centered in the hole.. now how can you secure it to mount it into place ??? From 56C to what ??
Second problem is a Metric shaft.. you might be able to find a keyed drive wheel to fit the "Local" motor .. Since i'm here and you there i have Zero idea of what type of motors you can get ..
 
it looks like there are 10/15 "Motor Repair" shops around you !! using my weak Google fu !!! i would make a few calls and see if they have anything TEFC that might work for ya ??
My home overseas is Terrible for services like that so i just buy and bring a "Spare" that way i stay operational until i can find or rebuild the motor that went out..
 
Pinoy Knife said:
The Leeson motors are not super expensive here the Baldor motors are .. they are like 1.5 times a Leeson !!!
basically my advise is/was to see what the difference is in the Europe motor compared to the U.S one if it is just a bigger/smaller diameter that becomes a easy "Fix" by making or buying a doughnut like ring to take up the difference.. the challenge if you will is keeping the motor centered in the hole.. now how can you secure it to mount it into place ??? From 56C to what ??
Second problem is a Metric shaft.. you might be able to find a keyed drive wheel to fit the "Local" motor .. Since i'm here and you there i have Zero idea of what type of motors you can get ..
Click to expand...
"From 56C to what?" That would be the drawing in the first post, and the IEC with the B14 interface.
This

Brook Crompton Series 10 IE2 1.5kW Three Phase Motor 230V/400V 4P 90L B14 - AC Motors (Three Phase)

Part No: A-DA90LA-C 4P B14, Brand: Brook Crompton, Model: Series 10 IE2 1.5kW Three Phase Motor 230V/400V 4P 90L B14
inverterdrive.com inverterdrive.com

or this, which has a higher dust resistance.

TEC IE2 1.5kW Aluminium Three Phase Motor 230V/400V 4 Pole 90L B14 IP65 - AC Motors (Three Phase)

Part No: 1.543TECAB14-IE2-IP65-TROP (TECA2-90L1-4-B14 + IP65+Tropicalise), Brand: TEC Electric Motors, Model: TEC IE2 1.5kW Aluminium Three Phase Motor 230V/400V 4 Pole 90L B14 IP65
inverterdrive.com inverterdrive.com

Greg at Reeder has said he can bore a 24mm drive wheel, and if he can cut a 8mm key that would sort that out. I always considered this to be the least of the problems.

The way I am leaning right now is to get two drive wheels, one 5/8th and one 24mm, then figure out a motor when the grinder arrives. I will then have the choice of buying a 56C Leeson here in the UK, or a cheaper IEC alternative that needs an adapter. That way I can actually try making/sourcing an adapter before I have to commit to a motor.
 
so i looked it up and from what i could quickly find a 56C face motor has a hole size for the Face mount of 4 1/2 inches. ( i would Ask Reeder )
the B14 " Local" motor has a hole requirement of 70mm or about 2 3/4 diameter.. another diagram shows a 80 mm which is about 3 1/4 diameter .
so yes you might need a Doughnut to center "Shim" it down unless you use a same size motor (Mounting hole diameter)
Again i looked you up over there in "London" area and you have lots of "Motor Shops" nearby... why not go talk to them ??
YOU DO WANT TEFC !! not trying to yell just stress it is very important to use a "Totally Enclosed Fan Cooled" motor.. i don't think aluminum or stainless bodies would be justified..
remember im just trying to help you here as it is Your decision to buy a "American machine" you could also buy the 3/8-16 bolts to be shipped with the machine ..
 
Hi Pinoy Knife,
I can ask Reeder what diameter location they machine in their frame, but I could also just wait to get the grinder and measure it. Knowing the exact size before hand doesn't help me. It isn't really a hole in their design, it is a location diameter and is relatively shallow on the grinder chassis, probably no more than 0.25 inch deep. I have a full outline drawing for the 56C TEFC motor from Regal Beloit, who make Leeson, so I can see that the motor location "spigot" is 4.497" to 4.5" diameter with a protrusion from the motor flange of 0.1 to 0.16".

If you look at the motors I linked to you will see they are size 90L B14, which corresponds to a location diameter of 95mm (not 70 or 80), as I show in my drawing, and as the linked motors describe in their specs.

Your suggestion to look locally did prompt me to find two motor suppliers that might be worth a call. Many such places are set up for industrial contracts only and much time can be wasted trying to talk to them...or they can quote very high prices for one-off non-trade customers. Past experiences have not been good, but I will give these a call. I would not say that there were "lots", even including the ones that were obviously not interested in individual customers.

I hope this isn't a dumb question, but are you putting "motor shops" into Google? In which case you may be seeing automobile repair garages and places that sell car parts, which would explain you saying there are "lots". That is what I see if I put "motor shop" into Google Maps. I have to put "Electric motor shop" to see things mostly related to electric motors and not car repairs. They call driving "motoring" here.

Distance and relative closeness are a little different in the UK compared to the US. Even though I am 35-40 miles from London no one would ever say I was in the London area. It goes with that joke about Americans thinking it funny that Brits consider 100 miles a long way, and Brits thinking it funny Americans consider 100 years a long time ;) The motor places I found were up in Northampton and Milton Keynes, even further from London than I am.

They don't really use TEFC as a term here, unless it is a US motor. They use IP ratings and I have not yet looked up whether IP55 or IP65 is the closest to the US TEFC definition. IP65 is 100% sealed, whereas IP55 is more common and is mostly sealed, but not 100%. I have been using an IP55 motor on my grinder for about 12 years without any problem. Rolled steel is used on the US motors, nearly all the IEC ones I have looked at are cast aluminium. It won't be a deciding factor in my choice.

Thank you for the time you have put in on research!👍🍻

Chris
 
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