Need advice on how to sharpen pls

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DillonJ3k

Joined
Nov 13, 2012
Messages
13
Hey, I'm new here but Iv been using this site for along while for recommendations an research. I have a esee Izula, spyderco endura 4 wave an a sak. I use all frequently but they are all dull an I don't have a good sharpner. I just use a Smith combo diamond stone an can't get a great edge on me with it. It is though a cheap sharpener I got as a gift so yea. But I really need to finally buy a good sharpener for my knives. I can use bench stones on a "sort of good level" from what I can see. but idk if a guided system or bench stone or any other way is the best to go. an which should I get. I want an amazing edge on all 3 of em. especially my Izula which I carry always an my endura. I'm open to all methods of sharpening. but I'd rather not spend a ton of money on it. rather buy a new knife instead of paying 100$ for a sharpener lol.

So what do you all recommend I get an master? would like to master one method of sharpening instead of hoping around methods. please post links or prices an why I should go with that method. if I buy it I really want it to get the job done lol.
 
Man, when I first got into seriously learning how to put a razor's edge on a knife, the first kit I picked up was a Sharpmaker. It almost made me want to quit. I sold it and picked up one of those ridiculously expensive setups with the guides... I hated it. I then discovered the only hand tools I need to put a push-cutting edge on anything - self-adhesive sandpaper discs on mousepads and a ceramic crock stick. I sometimes use a small stone, but rarely. Don't buy into the sharpener hype. If you handicap yourself into learning how to sharpen with a specific device, you're going to be in for a big surprise when you need to put an edge on something and all you have is a rock or coffee cup. Learn the basics and you can sharpen with just about anything harder than the steel that you're sharpening. I am NOT a fan of gimmicky sharpeners.
 
Look into Murray Carter. I use his techniques. I downloaded his video off his website and as soon as i got done watching it i went and sharpened my knife on my water stones that i had bought ahead of time, and all i can say is WOW. I was shaving hair off my arm that same night. I believe that once you know the basics of sharpening and know how it works to get an edge on a knife then you can sharpen with just about anything, and Murray Carter proves that. I myself am not a fan of relying on gadgets and jigs to do the work for me wich is why i freehand sharpen.
 
I started sharpening by going to a hardware store, getting a $4 sharpening stone and practicing on a few kitchen knives. Didn't take more than a few hours to really get the hang of it.
 
Nothing wrong with your smiths combo diamond stone unless you used excessive pressure while using it and ripped out the diamonds. If you haven't done so already clean it, dish soap and an old toothbrush works good and when you need more potent stuff to help clean it something like barkeepers friend will do the trick. Use water with it when you are sharpening if you want as it helps float the swarf.

It's more on technique than equipment on getting a sharp edge, I am willing to bet you need to work on your technique to get that sharp edge on your knives. Off hand 2 of the blades you listed have incredibly soft steel the Izula and SAK, in fact I would argue that until you get your skill up that the diamonds would be cutting too aggressively for them and would make it more difficult to put a nice edge on them. A Norton India combo stone would be my reccomendation for those as it should give you some pretty good feedback and cut less aggressively and put a nice edge on your knives. Can't comment on the vg10 as I haven't sharpened any steel like it.

On the plus side that stone I mentioned should set you back $20 and last you a lifetime. I would also pick up some compound such as some green rogue, flexcut gold, etc as long as it's of decent quality, that can set you back another $10 but also last you a lifetime. Since it sounds like you having difficulty sharpening and I will put money it's on technique you can cheat a little and pick up a DMT Aligner clamp and use that with the benchstone to help you keep a consistant angle, and as an added perk it makes reprofiling knives a lot easier and is worth it's weight in gold in my opinion. I actually prefer using the clamp on it's own with a $6 silicon carbide norton economy stone than using the entire DMT Aligner Deluxe I bought.

On strops you don't need to purchase one you can build one from MDF, leather, leather belts, balsa wood, use paper, etc the only limit you have is your mind. I used to use a piece of mousepad cut to fit on top of my benchstone and wrap paper and put the compound on that and strop. Now I switched to having a stone size block with some drawl liner wrapped around it and secured to it and once again wrap paper around it and strop. The liner set me back $1, and I am using some cheap $3 green compound which I don't reccomend and am getting some better stuff in the mail shortly. But even if you don't want to buy compound you can still strop on plain paper, belt, etc. In fact I used to strop on cardboard and I still strop on plain paper too. I hear paper that has the more brightly colored pages to it such as the cover to magazines I believe use clay in them to get that color and work good as strops in a pinch.

Here are some people who make some good sharpening videos, watch and learn. It will take a long time to absorb all the information but it will save you a lot of headaches in your future and possibly money thinking you need the better gear to get good results. My primary setup is 2 cheap $6 norton economy stones a silicon carbide and india combined with the worlds cheapest and crappiest $3 green compound with a custom strop I made that I mentioned earlier which I just started experimenting on which set me back an additional $1 for the liner. And that liner was originally bought to help keep the stones in place while I am sharpening. I can get my knives to slice and push cut newspaper with this setup (or even just one of the stones on it's own actually).

Jdavis882, I highly reccommend watching the one on off center edges and a lot of his other videos
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLB95E1C271CE6654B

MrEdgy
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfsHYm19KjjnUlpG8WVMZOA

Neuman2010
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjWBLVqZqnP9LQClOESmheQ

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/963298

Also take a look at the stickies on top of this forum it's a good read. At the end of the day it's all about putting a good apex on the blade, removing the burr and putting an acute enough angle to help you cut. It's mostly technique and very little on materials. And practice practice practice, preferably on some cheap knives you don't care about so you don't mess up your nice knives. I find a cheap kitching paring knife works good due to being inexpensive and the simple blade shape helps make it easier to sharpen when you are learning. Oh and don't forget to sharpie up your bevel so you can see where you are sharpening.
 
OK. so I'm going to go with bench stones over a guided system like the sharp maker an such but what bench stones to get. Waterstone, whetstone, India, diamond? idk how each of the those stones work. some have to have oil or compound or be soaked or something. not sure. so please me descriptive on em lol. I can put a sort of good edge on my knifes with the Smith combo I have now but not nearly as good as I want. an yes I know of diamond stones are meant for harder metals. shouldn't be using my Izula on it. so what stone(s) to get?
 
Norton India and Crystolon (aka silicon carbide) combo stones are good stones that you can pick up for $20. I own the economy versions of those and they work out great, I'd rather have the higher end versions but I don't. But from my own experience with the lesser versions and from what I hear from how people describe using these expect good feedback from the stone. The india fine side will leave a nice finish on the blade that has a slightly toothy edge that's good for EDC and general use in my opinion. The fine side of the crystolon will leave a more aggressive toothy edge but also works good for EDC.

The crystolon is also far more abrasive and will make short work of just about any steel if you want it too but for some reason I still find it quite bearable to sharpen my SAK and carbon steel blades on it. The india is less abbrassive than that, but more abrasive than Arkansas stones. Than you have diamond stones they are among the most abrasive things we have for benchstones. I can't comment on waterstones but from what I gather they have the potential to be a bit more of a headache when you are starting to learn.

Personally with what you have I go with the Norton India, if you want to add another stone to that for when you need to reprofile a knife or for some reason remove a lot of metal fast I toss in a Norton Crystolon. My personal grit progression for my stones go Norton economy coarse/fine cystolon than fine india, my dmt stones I have gotten with my DMT Aligner C/F/EF don't really get used anymore. If I had to guess at how end result in how refined an edge is after the fine crystolon I put it between a coarse and fine DMT, and fine india between fine and extra fine dmt. I would expect results to differ slightly from mine when you use the higher end ones but not by a large margin. You can use these stones with oil or water. Some people prefer using mineral oil as it's cheap and seems to stay on top of the stone better than water. I use water + dish soap as it's cheap and I don't have to worry as much about cleaning up my computer desk as that's where I sharpen, a quick wipe down of excess water and if there is any left it will air dry shortly and as an added perk I just cleaned my desk.

EDITED IN:
Yup that's the norton india combo stone. A humble but effective stone.
 
Some good advise here. I think you've made a good decision to learn freehand with bench stones - pays off large returns down the road. The Norton Crystalon and India stones are about as simple and effective as it gets. The Crystalon is probably a bit nicer choice for learning, as it grinds faster and is less likely to load up or glaze than the India. Also seems to have a bit more tactile feedback. The India makes a finer edge but is a tad slower and requires a bit more finesse. Both are great choices - the IB8 you linked to is the classic combination India 8" stone.

Either one, I'm one of those that definitely recommend using mineral oil as it can actually float the removed steel dust and any stone debris. Water or soapy water (I used this for quite a while on my stones) will help keep the stone from plugging but over time the surface will usually show signs of glazing. Used with oil the surface actually looks better over time. Lots of opinions on this - you can try water on a pre-oiled stone (both of the Norton stones come pre-oiled) by simply adding a bit of dish soap to the water, this will allow it to spread out on the surface and not bead up.

I have to put a plug in for my Washboard too, can be checked out through the link in my signature below. Is a bit more expensive than the Norton stones but not by too much. It packs a lot of utility into a simple design, and handles the range of basic repair and changing inclusive angles right up to a very fine edge.

Bob6794 was nice enough to link to some of my videos under the "Neuman2010" youtube name, most of those were made as users videos for the Washboard. Even if you aren't interested in buying one, the videos and link to the user's manual have good content for a lot of general sharpening tips and concepts - the block I sell is a bench stone at its core, but with a bit of a twist.

Martin
 
I don't recall ever hearing anyone complain about Martin's Washboard, I don't own one (yet, it's on my list of things to get). So if that interests you don't hesitate on picking that up.

You should also take a look at the link to his Washboard whether or not it interests you and look at the instructions for it as it has a lot of good useful information you can use. And even the videos on using the washboard are quite informative.
 
OK so I plan on getting that Norton India combo stone the IB8. from what iv seen on other threads. it's a great stone an works well. I already have mineral oil for it so yea lol. but should I also get a finer stone to make my knives sharper. or would stroping be the same thing as using an extra fine stone?
 
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1014274-What-is-sharpening-a-knife-about

"Refinement vs. Sharpness

Sharpness does not equal refinement. They are not the same thing, at all. In fact, they are two different things. Related, but different. You can get a push-cutting edge on a DMT coarse stone if the edge is apexed and the burr removed. The bevel will look like you took an old rusty file from grandpa’s shop and attacked your knife… but it will push cut paper. Why? Again, because sharpness is not about refinement. It’s about apexing the edge and removing the burr. So what is refinement? Refinement is about making that apexed edge smoother and less toothy, but it doesn’t really affect sharpness. So why do we refine an edge? Why not just finish on one coarse stone? The reason why is because the coarse stone leaves an extremely toothy and jagged edge which will deform easily and dull quickly. People refine edges to get a cleaner, smoother, longer-lasting cutting edge. The extreme example would be a straight razor polished by a honemeister. You see, even though you can get a scary sharp edge off of a 1k stone, it won’t shave smoothly (i.e., it will irritate your face). You need to go to 16k, or 30k, or JNats, or Belgium Coticules to smooth that edge out to the point it’s like glass and doesn’t irritate the skin. That’s refinement. Not sharpness."

I bolded parts that looked more important. In short a coarse edge can be sharp it's about making the blade apexed and removing the burr. Imagine a coarse edge having micro serrations or teeth like a saw (usually referred to as being toothy) and a more refined edge being completely flat. The toothy edges are better for slicing and more refined or commonly referred as polished edges are better at push cutting. It's easier to think of it as neither being sharper than the other for simplicity but they each serve it's purpose. I find the Norton India Fine to be a very happy middle ground.

Compound can kind of act like a higher grit stone, kind of. Were talking stupidly high grit waterstone levels though. It's hard to judge stones by how aggressive they are against different types and what is referred to as "coarse, fine", abrasive types and how they act, and a million other factors but just to give you a very vague idea that norton india fine is equivalent to 35micron, green rogue or green polishing compound is around 0.5micron off hand. It's far too high of a grit progression and due to the materials it's applied onto it may take on different characteristics and act less aggressively. Your not going to be able to remove the scratch patterns you already put in from the fine india from a compound but just refine that edge a bit more.

I like to think of stropping and using compounds as refining the edge very slightly while keeping a good amount of the coarse edge we left off on from the stone as well as using to help with burr removal.
 
DillonJ3k said:
OK so I plan on getting that Norton India combo stone the IB8. from what iv seen on other threads. it's a great stone an works well. I already have mineral oil for it so yea lol. but should I also get a finer stone to make my knives sharper. or would stroping be the same thing as using an extra fine stone?
Click to expand...

Stropping in general is not going to be the same as working from a finer stone. You can use some compound to make a more refined edge coming off the India stone, but will get best results by using a compound that's a bit toward the rough side.

For an improvised strop you can always simply wrap some paper around the coarse side of the India stone and apply the honing compound to that. By using a harder backing you'll impart a more comprehensive change to the grind pattern on the blade and really change its cutting characteristics. If you use leather or most other stropping materials, you will have to keep your pressure in the very light range and it won't be able to remove steel in the same way it can with a hard backing - winds up being a more subtle polish of the existing scratch pattern.

Ryobi black compound is pretty common and a good fit for this sort of work. Going with a real fine abrasive compound straight off the India stone is not the best strategy though can still produce some good results. The Ryobi and most other "black emery" compounds are a bit larger size and work better off of a medium finish stone.

The easiest way to improve the edge right off the India or any other mid range stone is to strop on newspaper wrapped around the same stone. Is not enough to repair the edge from use, but as a final step off the stone works great and the price can't be beat.
 
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