Need Belt Sander Belt Advice Please

rustyshackelford

rustyshackelford

Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
426
Hi,
So I have been cruising the posts regarding sharpening with a belt sander and I went ahead and purchased the cheapo model from that one store.
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Now I understand that there are some great belts out there but I can't decide which ones would be best for my sharpening needs.
Could you guys please help me with come belt choices? Type, grit, brand, etc.
Then please give me any info or links to info regarding technique.
Thank you for your time.
 
I don't know what threads you've been to, but belt sanders are generally only used by knifemakers for profiling knives before HT. They tend to heat the blade too much and remove too much material for fine work. I'm sure there are others who can give better advice, but I say get some stainless and start making knives. Don't let that money go to waste! :P
 
Zanuha said:
I don't know what threads you've been to, but belt sanders are generally only used by knifemakers for profiling knives before HT. They tend to heat the blade too much and remove too much material for fine work. I'm sure there are others who can give better advice, but I say get some stainless and start making knives. Don't let that money go to waste! :P
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That's very far from the truth, not only do plenty of knifemakers sharpen their knives with belt sanders (pretty much anyone that has a convex edge/grind) but they'll never do any damage to the heat treat so long as you're not applying undo pressure to the belt or holding it their for at least more than 30 seconds. I feel like people immediately spout the "it will built up heat too fast and ruin your HT" line without have actually ever used a belt sander to sharpen for. Not only does a little bucket of water prevent any possible heat issues, but it's entirely unlikely you'll run into them in the first place if you know what you're doing.

There's quite a few belt choices: Aluminum Oxide, Silica Carbide, and Micro-Mesh. AO tends to wear very quickly so they almost feel like a waste of money if you're going to be doing a lot of sharpening. I'm not too familiar with SC but I read once that they "break in" and get smoother and smoother, so they can be used for a while but in a different capacity (going from grinding initially to polishing once they've smoothed out). I have to buy some soon, but Micro-Mesh is apparently the best for resisting wear. However, I still have yet to figure out their grit system so I haven't bought any. Not sure if this is deal spotting, but this place seems to be the cheapest for all of them: http://micro-surface.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=272_7_228_262&products_id=91

Using the Work Sharp (which is essentially a mini belt sander), I touch up knives going from 600 grit on to 1800, 6000, and then on a loaded strop. Leaves a near perfect mirror polish every time. When you need to reprofile or really fix a damaged bevel, 220 would probably be the lowest you would want to go because it will work so fast. I don't really have any great technique tips other than the one thing I struggled with at first: make sure you take the knife off the belt before you get halfway through the belt, or the belt will flex over the tip and round it.

I'm sure those more knowledgeable will be of more use than I, but I hope this helps a little.
 
Allright, learn something new every day. I've had differing experiences with my sander, but it's not exactly made for knifemaking anyway.
 
Google Jerry hossom and belt sander. He has a very well done post on sharpening with a belt sander. I personally use a 320, 600, and a leather belt with green compound on it. But as you will use a belt sander for alot of things a wider range of belts are worth getting with your belt order. I get mine from Pops knife supply and have ordered from a few other places as well. Mainly look that the belt you order is made for grinding steel and not wood. Yes there is a big difference in belts made for wood and thos made for steel.
 
I've been looking at the belts at Lee Valley. They appear to have a nice variety but I can't tell which ones are good for sharpening...
Have you guys used any of their belts?
 
The advice that was given to me when I started with the belt was quite agreeably simple:

1: Go to ECON Abrasives
2: Purchase 3ea standard grit belts in 120, 220, 320 and 400.
3: Purchase 1ea micron graded belts in 15u and 9u.
3: Purchase two leather stropping belts.
4: Purchase 1ea 1lb bar of white buffing compound and green buffing compound.

That set there will get you started and going quite well, and will be able to put a tremendous convex edge on pretty much anything you care to sharpen. The 120s will not be used nearly as much as the others, but will also wear quite a bit faster so it's worth getting about the same number. That set will be good for quite a lot of knives, the leather belts will last indefinitely and will still be used once you upgrade your abrasive belts with experience.

Once you've gotten the hang of sharpening with the belt and are comfortable with it, THEN it's time to start looking at the Trixact, Norax and other more advanced abrasives for your belts.
 
I don't know how emery cloth (or emery paper) grit varies from basic sandpaper, but I do know that it's designed to work on metal, and it should last longer than the sand paper, and in the higher grits (I've seen up to 3000!) it's enough to give a piece of scrap metal (junkyard metal that's been rusting for several years in acid rain) a mirror finish.
 
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Komitadjie said:
The advice that was given to me when I started with the belt was quite agreeably simple:

1: Go to ECON Abrasives
2: Purchase 3ea standard grit belts in 120, 220, 320 and 400.
3: Purchase 1ea micron graded belts in 15u and 9u.
3: Purchase two leather stropping belts.
4: Purchase 1ea 1lb bar of white buffing compound and green buffing compound.

That set there will get you started and going quite well, and will be able to put a tremendous convex edge on pretty much anything you care to sharpen. The 120s will not be used nearly as much as the others, but will also wear quite a bit faster so it's worth getting about the same number. That set will be good for quite a lot of knives, the leather belts will last indefinitely and will still be used once you upgrade your abrasive belts with experience.

Once you've gotten the hang of sharpening with the belt and are comfortable with it, THEN it's time to start looking at the Trixact, Norax and other more advanced abrasives for your belts.
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Nice! This is exactly the kind of info I need. If I ever wanted to give a mirror polish to a blade would these belts be all I need or Is there any other ones I should look at too?
 
A fair bit of it is technique, but after you are finished with the 9 micron belt it will be shining up quite nicely, and the leather can really bring out a shine. The grits cut a LOT smoother on metal than they do on wood, as far as I can tell, which is not all that surprising. The 220 grit belt alone can leave a VERY workable edge, when I'm sharpening at the local sporting goods place, one of the edges that is a favourite of my clients on skinning knives is an edge finished with a fresh 220, followed by the green compound to remove the burr thoroughly.

Bear in mind that you are not going to be able to polish the WHOLE blade with a belt, just the edge you put on it. :)

Once you have gotten your technique down and are comfortable with the process using the grit and micron-graded belts, then it's worth your time to start considering the structured abrasives. I use 3M Trizact belts, custom made by Doug Rising. They put on an extremely consistent scratch pattern and last friggin' FOREVER. They claim ten times as long as a grit belt, and so far I'm inclined to believe that is quite conservative.
 
Komitadjie you peeked my interest in these Trizact belts. What grit size do they come in? Are they a stiff belt like a X weight belt? What do you use for a belt grinder? I have the Viel 1x42.
 
i sharpen a lot of knives both with a belt sander and with the paper wheels. when i work up a burr on the belt sander, i always take it off on the slotted paper wheel. the only grits i use to sharpen are from 120-400 grit and i never have seen the need to go any higher. if i want to put more of a polished edge on, i just make a few more passes on the wheel.

i have both jflex and trizact belts and i find myself seldom using the trizact belts. when i do use a trizact belt, its for putting a finer satin finish on a blade.
 
db said:
Komitadjie you peeked my interest in these Trizact belts. What grit size do they come in? Are they a stiff belt like a X weight belt? What do you use for a belt grinder? I have the Viel 1x42.
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They're actually on their own rating scale for grit that is very roughly scaled in the grit chart sticky. When you see one you'll understand why, the structured abrasive would really pretty solidly defy grading on a conventional particle-size scale. The "standard" sharpening lineup I use is an A65, A20, A6 and A3, followed by 1u Boron Carbide on a SurgiSharp, and .5u Chromium oxide on a SurgiSharp. That's sufficient to put a quite nicely mirrored convex on a blade, and just last week I was showing off the ability of my BRKT Tusk to pass the hanging hair test.

The stiffness is medium, a little softer than an X, I think, and I'm using a Kalamazoo 1x42. My belts are sourced from Doug Rising, as I mentioned, he works up ones that are a tad better than the standard Trizact in terms of precision and smoothness of the join.
 
Oh, and just because I've found a convenient excuse to post some knife-porn, this is a James Whitten custom, in D2. Just sharpened it up this afternoon on my Kalamazoo, with the Trizact series I mentioned in my last post. This particular knife will now pass the HHT along 80% or so of its edge, with a slightly less-sharp segment right at the heel of the blade, and near the tip. That's mainly just because I was running out of time for the job, I used some dead time in my sharpening down at the local shop to work on this one, and I had a customer show up while I was working it on the leather. Bit more work with the leather belt and it'll HHT across the entire blade, no problem.

Photo-wise, I'm playing with my 7D and a speedlight. The only significant lighting in this photo is from the on-camera flashgun, bounced over my left shoulder onto the wall and ceiling. Just tossed my BDU blouse onto the bed, hanging over my camera bag as a "scene" for the shot. It over-exposed slightly at the edge of the blade, I tried several angles and just couldn't kill the reflection off the polished convex. Camera is in full-manual mode, flash is in ETTL Autoflash with 2/3s of a stop of positive compensation cranked in. Lens is a fixed 50mm prime.

leftsidelr.jpg

FULL VIEW

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FULL VIEW
 
I bought a 1x30 and spent way more on belts than the sander. Iv'e settled on 3 belts. If I need to reprofile, I start with a 240 trizact. You can go coarser, depending on how much material you want to remove. After the 240, I use a 600 SIC belt. Then, go to a loaded leather belt. Unless you really beat on the knife, touchups can be done with the 600 then leather belt. Iv'e sharpened an axe to shaving with 240 to leather belt, ymmv. Play with it and figure out what works for you, but I'm happy with these 3.
 
nice kom! I have sharpened a lot of knives on my belt sander but don't think I've ever been able to pass the hht with one done on my belt sander! and Richard, i too take off the burr with the slotted paper wheel.... for some reason (i think because it is harder) it seems to take off the burr much quicker than my leather belt... dunno why.

biggest piece of advice I can give you is to make sure you use the right grit belt for the job. i.e. if you want to take off a lot of metal, use a 60 grit instead of a 220. this will prevent heat build up and save you time. (mainly when you sharpen ax or lawnmower blades or a heavy duty survival knife). i would recommend a 60, 120, 600, and then a few micron belts (i. e. 32, 16, 6) then a leather belt loaded with a. compound (i too got mine from pops). i love the ceramic belts myself... they seem to last much longer than the AO and keep the blade cooler. they will grind smoother and smoother over time, so I find myself needing much more of the lower grit belts than the higher ones. hope this helps!
 
Very, very true. My current choice for the heavy work are Norton Blaze ceramic belts. Typically I use a 120 if I need to go more aggressive than the A65, or an 80 if I really need to take metal off (reshaping a badly broken chip, huge nicks, etc.) You will build up a lot less heat for the amount of metal removed with a coarse belt, since the chips are large enough to carry a portion of the heat away with them as they go. The Blaze belts just seem to last and last, even under some seriously tough work!

The trick (for me anyway) to pass a HHT off of the belt is to progress all the way through the A3 Trizact, spend a lot of time on the leather, and very, VERY light pressure. Typically I sharpen in the slack, and strop on the platen, since the leather is far more flexible than a tensioned Trizact belt. I've only recently (the last month or so) developed my feel for the power stropping well enough to pass a HHT. I'm actually tempted to get some quarter-micron and another belt, and see if I can get it even SHARPER with the finer grit. Right now it parts the hair out to about a quarter inch from my fingers. Perhaps I could get that out farther into even more flexible territory! If I go out farther now, it whittles the hair and takes off a long curl instead of parting it cleanly.
 
Komitadjie said:
Very, very true. My current choice for the heavy work are Norton Blaze ceramic belts. Typically I use a 120 if I need to go more aggressive than the A65, or an 80 if I really need to take metal off (reshaping a badly broken chip, huge nicks, etc.) You will build up a lot less heat for the amount of metal removed with a coarse belt, since the chips are large enough to carry a portion of the heat away with them as they go. The Blaze belts just seem to last and last, even under some seriously tough work!

The trick (for me anyway) to pass a HHT off of the belt is to progress all the way through the A3 Trizact, spend a lot of time on the leather, and very, VERY light pressure. Typically I sharpen in the slack, and strop on the platen, since the leather is far more flexible than a tensioned Trizact belt. I've only recently (the last month or so) developed my feel for the power stropping well enough to pass a HHT. I'm actually tempted to get some quarter-micron and another belt, and see if I can get it even SHARPER with the finer grit. Right now it parts the hair out to about a quarter inch from my fingers. Perhaps I could get that out farther into even more flexible territory! If I go out farther now, it whittles the hair and takes off a long curl instead of parting it cleanly.
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lol, you're crazy! I have done everything in the slack... maybe that's the problem.... i'll try the leather on the platen and let you know! Thanks!
 
You use it just like the green. There are a number of different ways that people apply the compound to the belt, but I've had the best luck with just turning the motor on and pressing the stick lightly to the moving belt. You need very, very little of the compounds on the leather, I use just enough that I can begin to see a slight colour change. After a few times of using it, you'll be able to tell from how it feels on the blade when it's time to re-apply the compound. You don't need to re-apply frequently, how fast depends on your belt and how much you put on, but I would do so every ~20 knives, give or take. If the belt starts to load up too much, a piece of 120 sandpaper or one of your 120 belts, held over three fingers and pressed into the slack seems to do a very good job of stripping off the glaze and 'reconditioning' the belt surface. As soon as you get to clear leather, stop sanding, you're there! It doesn't take much. :)

The two I use are ECON part numbers:

2380001 - Green
2380003 - White

I hadn't even noticed that they mention the white for plastics, honestly. It works great for a final polish, I think. When I upgraded to using the Trizact belts, I also upgraded my compounds a bit, I now use Keith's Boron Carbide and Chromium Oxide formulations on my belts, but they're a bit expensive and more than a little excessive for getting started. You could actually even do without the white and finish off the green if you want. As I mentioned, some of my clients swear by a 220-grit edge, deburred with the green compound.
 
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