Need hamon help!

B

bennett

Joined
Sep 22, 2005
Messages
212
Good evening, ya'll.
I have a question about clay tempering. I tempered a little drop point this evening, and for the first time, coated the blade (partially) with clay. Specifically with a fireclay mortar from AP Green (very useful stuff for putting IFB together!). By the way - big thanks to Bob Engnath for posting such a great tutorial on his website - good stuff! :thumbup: Anyway...It was recommended to me as one of several "clays" that can be used for clay tempering. Here's what I did - I took my blade, made of 1084 that I got from Kelley Cupples, and normalized it 3 times to non-magnetic. When it cooled, I gave it a quick sanding to remove scale, and coated most of the blade with fireclay (about 3/4 of the way across the blade, and about 1/4 of the way up the tang). Removed the clay from the spine of the blade. Heated slowly to non-magnetic again, and quenched the whole thing, point first, in transmission fluid. When it cooled, I removed it from the quench. The clay came off by itself. There was a very distinct silvery line on each side of the blade! :D I sanded through a few grits to 320, to remove scale, make it look purty, and get it ready for the oven. However, after sanding I noticed that there is a definite temper line, but not the distinct hamon that I was shooting for :grumpy: . Don't get me wrong - it looks cool, and the edge is hard because I could get a "bite" on it with a new file. The same file did bite at the back edge, so the blade must have gotten harder at the edge than at the spine. But I wanted a hamon that "jumped off the blade" so to speak. I'm wondering if I did something wrong, or needed to do something else to get the hamon to show. I'm making a mediterranean style dirk from the same 1084, and plan to use clay when I quench it. Should I quench in water or brine instead of oil? I've been told some people do actually use water on 1084... Is the lack of hamon just characteristic of 1084, and would O1 produce a more distinct hamon? Do I need to etch the blade in some kind of acid to get it to show more distinctly? Any input from you good folks would be most appreciated!
 
An etch would show the hamon more. There are different methods to etch blades to show the hamon. Feric Cloride mixed 3 water - 1 Feric Cloride will show a nice line but be carefull not to leave it in the mix to long. Another method is using the same mix and applying it with a Q-tip along the hamon line. There are many many more. Do a search and pick the method that works best for you.

Joe Foster
 
bennett said:
and coated most of the blade with fireclay (about 3/4 of the way across the blade, and about 1/4 of the way up the tang). Removed the clay from the spine of the blade. Heated slowly to non-magnetic again, and quenched the whole thing
Click to expand...

Did I read that correctly? You removed the clay from the spine, but left it on the cutting edge? :confused: Set me straight........ I'm not the brightest bulb on the tree ya know.
 
Hamons are my new pet to play with, and never seem easy. its easy enoug to get a good line, and make it visible, but a whole different art to get the hamon to pop and show subleties....

What I do:

Finish to the best you can...preferrably 1000grit+. The finer the finish, the better. You can buff, but just sanding looks better in the long run, imho. I then take a weakened FECL solution and etch for a SHORT period of time....less than 10 seconds usually. I quickly neutralize and rub the hell out of the blade with 0000 steel wool. I repeat this 3-5 times. My most recent blade, which i don't have a pic of yet, has come out nice enough that I not only see the transistion line and some nice hamon action (white fuzzy lines), but I did a repeated interrupted quench, and I can make out at least 5 more transisiton lines above the main line, giving it an almost rainbow effect.

Heres one that had a very distinct double hamon, but I did a quick and dirty etch on....
hamon.jpg
 
Take it to 800 grit or better. Clean the blade as any oils from your fingers will show. Dip it in the etch, I like to use warm vinegar but weak FC can be used. Watch the blade and then remove the black oxidation with flitz, mothers, or the like polishing paste. After three or four of those you should see a good hamon. To take it a bit further etch once or twice more and remove the black stuff with lapidry power on a cotton pad. DO NOT use sand paper you will be taking a bunch of your hamon off as you sand.

Here are a couple blades I have etched this way

http://www.sethhowardknives.com/mi/images/image013_jpg.jpg
http://www.sethhowardknives.com/mi/images/image001_jpg.jpg

There are many ways to get there. This is one.


Seth
 
Thanks for the advice, Seth. I think I found my mistake. After etching, I used sandpaper to remove the oxidation, and continued on through 1200 grit. I probably removed the hamon. You can still see it, but not like you can on your blades. I'm going to try your method (and use weak FeCL) on my mediterranead dirk. I'll let you know how it goes. Big thanks to everyone who replied to my question! :D
 
Roosko said:
Did I read that correctly? You removed the clay from the spine, but left it on the cutting edge? :confused: Set me straight........ I'm not the brightest bulb on the tree ya know.
Click to expand...

This really has me wondering also Robert. Bennet, would you please tell us again how you applied, then removed, the fire clay?
Thanks!
Robert (The less important Robert)
 
I think he was talking about the actuall spine not the sides of the grind away from the edge. Removing the clay from the spine helps some with the downward travel of the point.


Seth
 
rhrocker said:
This really has me wondering also Robert. Bennet, would you please tell us again how you applied, then removed, the fire clay?
Thanks!
Robert (The less important Robert)
Click to expand...

Hawg-wash........ Robert, you are just as important as this Robert........ Well, at least until there is only one piece of fried chicken left, then I am most important........ :D :D

The other Robert
 
Fried chicken sounds pretty good right now! Skipped dinner to work on the handle of my clay treated blade. To answer Roosko and rockers' questions (I think...), I sanded the blade through 1000 grit, and got it basically where I wanted it. I then applied clay along the spine of the blade, up to about 3/4 of the way across, leaving the remaining 1/4 or so of the blade (including the edge) exposed. I removed the clay from along the spine (not the sides) to prevent it bending upward when quenched. I applied the clay with an artist's palette knife I found in the garage. The clay stayed on through the quench, and fell off after the blade had cooled. I'm going to clean the oxidation off using something like Flitz next time, instead of sandpaper. I'm also thinking about fluxing the blade before clay-coating it, and then fluxing it again after the clay is on. Also about quenching the steel in water or brine instead of oil. By the way, ya'll - I appreciate all of the advice!
 
The hamon goes all the way through the blade, you do need to sand off the oxidation before you work to bring the hamon back out. Etching like mentioned should work well, it's what most western knifemakers do. If you wanted to be extra hardcore you could get water stones and try to polish the hamon out without etching, but it's an art that takes much practice.
 
I recently tried my hand ad water stone polishing. I cant figue out the grits. My 1000 grit waterstone seems more akin to a 600-800.....i loved how it "felt", though.....
 
AwP is correct, you do not sand off the hamon. It is just easier and quicker to explain that way.

The abrasives in sand paper dull the surface of the blade and hide the hamon activity. The abrasives in the polished like Flitz do not have the same effect. Lapidry powders and Pumice really help to bring it out.


Seth
 
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