Hi to everybody. I have never posted in this particular forum before, but I have decided that it would probably be the most appropriate place for my topic. I am looking forward to hear from people with real outdoor or military experience since I have none. I am trying to design a shovel similar to a Soviet special forces shovel, but with some improvements. Cold Steel is making a shovel similar to russian, but with a thicker blade. However I would like to make certain modifications, for example full tang and G10 or micarta handles. This shovel proved to be a very versatile tool for rusian special forces. You can dig with it, chop with it, cut with it since all the edges are sharpened. It is also a devastating weapon. My martial art instructor Vladimir Vasilliev spent 10 years in russian special forces and showed us some good techniques with it. It is also very easy to throw and can be thrown at the enemies legs to prevent them from running away. I would like your opinions on what features can be added to this tool to increase it's efficiency and versatility. For example I thought that a notch to pull the nails out of the wood is probably useful. The end of the hadle can be probably modified into a crowbar. Anyway, I welcome any brainstorming including suggestions for the dimensions and steel. I am serious about making it and would like it eventually be the product of collective thinking of forumites. Thank you in advance. Alex.
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Need help designing a shovel
- Thread starter fandorin
- Start date
"CHAPTER 1: SPADES and MEN
Every infantryman in the Soviet Army carries with him a small spade. When he is given the order to halt he immediately lies flat and starts to dig a hole in the ground beside him. In three minutes he will have dug a little trench 15 centimetres deep, in which he can lie stretched out flat, so that bullets can whistle harmlessly over his head. The earth he has dug out forms a breastwork in front and at the side to act as an additional cover...
In this book we are not talking about the infantry but about soldiers belonging to other units, known as spetznaz. These soldiers never dig trenches; in fact, they never take up defensive positions. They either launch a sudden attack on an enemy or, if they meet with resistance or superior enemy forces, they disappear as quickly as they appeared and attack the enemy again where and when the enemy least expects them to appear.
Surprisingly, the spetznaz soldiers also carry the little infantry spades. Why do they need them? It is practically impossible to describe in words how they use their spades. You really have to see what they do with them. In the hands of a spetznaz soldier the spade is a terrible noiseless weapon and every member of spetznaz gets much more training in the use of his spade than does the infantryman. The first thing he has to teach himself is precision: to split little slivers of wood with the edge of the spade or to cut off the neck of a bottle so that the bottle remains whole. He has to learn to love his spade and have faith in its accuracy. To do that he places his hand on the stump of a tree with the fingers spread out and takes a big swing at the stump with his right hand using the edge of the spade. Once he has learned to use the spade well and truly as an axe he is taught more complicated things. The little spade can be used in hand-to-hand fighting against blows from a bayonet, a knife, a fist or another spade. A soldier armed with nothing but the spade is shut in a room without windows along with a mad dog, which makes for an interesting contest...."
SPETZNAZ by Victor Suvorov
Lesson
In life, change nothing without a reason...let it be Alex. Instead practice.
Take care,
bug
Every infantryman in the Soviet Army carries with him a small spade. When he is given the order to halt he immediately lies flat and starts to dig a hole in the ground beside him. In three minutes he will have dug a little trench 15 centimetres deep, in which he can lie stretched out flat, so that bullets can whistle harmlessly over his head. The earth he has dug out forms a breastwork in front and at the side to act as an additional cover...
In this book we are not talking about the infantry but about soldiers belonging to other units, known as spetznaz. These soldiers never dig trenches; in fact, they never take up defensive positions. They either launch a sudden attack on an enemy or, if they meet with resistance or superior enemy forces, they disappear as quickly as they appeared and attack the enemy again where and when the enemy least expects them to appear.
Surprisingly, the spetznaz soldiers also carry the little infantry spades. Why do they need them? It is practically impossible to describe in words how they use their spades. You really have to see what they do with them. In the hands of a spetznaz soldier the spade is a terrible noiseless weapon and every member of spetznaz gets much more training in the use of his spade than does the infantryman. The first thing he has to teach himself is precision: to split little slivers of wood with the edge of the spade or to cut off the neck of a bottle so that the bottle remains whole. He has to learn to love his spade and have faith in its accuracy. To do that he places his hand on the stump of a tree with the fingers spread out and takes a big swing at the stump with his right hand using the edge of the spade. Once he has learned to use the spade well and truly as an axe he is taught more complicated things. The little spade can be used in hand-to-hand fighting against blows from a bayonet, a knife, a fist or another spade. A soldier armed with nothing but the spade is shut in a room without windows along with a mad dog, which makes for an interesting contest...."
SPETZNAZ by Victor Suvorov
Lesson
In life, change nothing without a reason...let it be Alex. Instead practice.
Take care,
bug
Bug, I think you have missed my point. This spade for me is not supposed to be the fighting tool only. I am actually trying to make more of a survival tool that you can dig holes with, chop the wood and do many other things. That is why I am trying to change the design. I am only using Spetznaz shovel as starting point. By the way you are incorrect about Spetznaz soldiers using the shovel for fighting only. Our martial art school organizes the trip to Russia every year for 1-2 weeks were they train with spetznaz soldiers. One part of this training is survival in the forest where they have to build the shelter only using this shovel and nothing else and stay there for 3 days. The original name of this shovel is "saperskaya lopatka" which means the shovel for the units that find and defuse land mines. Regarding your opinion that this item does not require improvement I would disagree. Even Cold Steel admitedly improved it by using better steel and increasing thickness of the blade. Having spent 2 years in Soviet Army I must tell you that the quality of the stuff we were using was very low. We used to have fun breaking AK 47 bayonets by lightly hitting the blade against the top of the wooden table.
Guys, I am still waiting for your input. Alex.
Guys, I am still waiting for your input. Alex.
- Joined
- May 30, 2001
- Messages
- 25
Hello to all and especially fandorin. I have experience with various military shovels gained through the years. I do not have experience with cold steel version of the spetznaz shovel
but I have a solid experience with original version and also with old US army folding shovel and new NATO issue like tri-fold yugoslavian army shovel and other misc. shovels
issued in Yugoslavian army.
Of all shovels in use I was usually carrying soviet "saperskaya lopatka" or engineering shovel which I think is a more correct translation. It was lightest of all and with its little size
you lose just a bit of usefulness. My second choice as tool and weapon goes to old US army shovel. It is lighter and with longer handle than tri-fold shovel and best digger of all. In
combat it is a little slower then spetznaz shovel but tougher and with more reach. It is also easier to use with both hands. We learnt some very interesting combat techniques with it.
In a real combat I will prefer a shovel any time over a rifle with bayonet (not counting shooting) or any knife or machete.
I do not think that your idea about full tang and g10 handles is good one. Ideal material for handle is straight grained wood. It must be though and easily replaceable. I will like nice
round end on the handle of my shovel because such end will make shovel much more user friendly in any situation requiring trusting. You can easily cut your hands on crow bar
end.
My opinion is that spetznaz shovel is very near perfection especially in the Cold Steel version. Nail puling notch will be nice but it can compromise strength of the blade. Steel must
be soft and though allowing easy filled sharpening and straightening of a edge. Anything with a thicker blade harder steel and full tang will be more combat and less utility oriented
and will be more like hatchet. The most important thing is that shovel must be relatively cheap expendable tool.
BTW I also remember breaking Yugoslavian ak bayonets with relatively ease. They are good blades, little too hard for their intended propose but they are not bad as combat blades.
On one testing in local weapon magazine they rocveled on 60-62.
but I have a solid experience with original version and also with old US army folding shovel and new NATO issue like tri-fold yugoslavian army shovel and other misc. shovels
issued in Yugoslavian army.
Of all shovels in use I was usually carrying soviet "saperskaya lopatka" or engineering shovel which I think is a more correct translation. It was lightest of all and with its little size
you lose just a bit of usefulness. My second choice as tool and weapon goes to old US army shovel. It is lighter and with longer handle than tri-fold shovel and best digger of all. In
combat it is a little slower then spetznaz shovel but tougher and with more reach. It is also easier to use with both hands. We learnt some very interesting combat techniques with it.
In a real combat I will prefer a shovel any time over a rifle with bayonet (not counting shooting) or any knife or machete.
I do not think that your idea about full tang and g10 handles is good one. Ideal material for handle is straight grained wood. It must be though and easily replaceable. I will like nice
round end on the handle of my shovel because such end will make shovel much more user friendly in any situation requiring trusting. You can easily cut your hands on crow bar
end.
My opinion is that spetznaz shovel is very near perfection especially in the Cold Steel version. Nail puling notch will be nice but it can compromise strength of the blade. Steel must
be soft and though allowing easy filled sharpening and straightening of a edge. Anything with a thicker blade harder steel and full tang will be more combat and less utility oriented
and will be more like hatchet. The most important thing is that shovel must be relatively cheap expendable tool.
BTW I also remember breaking Yugoslavian ak bayonets with relatively ease. They are good blades, little too hard for their intended propose but they are not bad as combat blades.
On one testing in local weapon magazine they rocveled on 60-62.
Hi Bogdan,
Thank you for your input. I need more inputs like this. You are probably right about nail puller. The steel has to be on a softer side to prevent chipping from hard use. I don't understand why you are against full tang. You said that you like wood because it is easily replaceable, but a full tang shovel should be nearly undestructable so there will be no need to replace it. The reason I am emphasizing a full tang is because I want to be able to use this shovel confidently for chopping and I do not trust the wood/metal interface. If you have chopped with this shovel and had no problems ,please let me know, I might change my opinion. I just thought that a full tang hawk by Walter Brend looks good and a similar shovel would be a nice addition.The other handle I would like is the one piece hollow handle like on Reeves knives, but it is probably harder to make. Thanks for your input. Alex.
Thank you for your input. I need more inputs like this. You are probably right about nail puller. The steel has to be on a softer side to prevent chipping from hard use. I don't understand why you are against full tang. You said that you like wood because it is easily replaceable, but a full tang shovel should be nearly undestructable so there will be no need to replace it. The reason I am emphasizing a full tang is because I want to be able to use this shovel confidently for chopping and I do not trust the wood/metal interface. If you have chopped with this shovel and had no problems ,please let me know, I might change my opinion. I just thought that a full tang hawk by Walter Brend looks good and a similar shovel would be a nice addition.The other handle I would like is the one piece hollow handle like on Reeves knives, but it is probably harder to make. Thanks for your input. Alex.
- Joined
- May 30, 2001
- Messages
- 25
Hello Fandorin
To be really useful full tang must have some thickness to prevent bending. The thickness of cold steel spetnaz shovel is 2 mm and thickness of the original is about 1,3 mm. That
is not enough to ensure stiffness of the handle. Stiffness of the blade is achieved by bending the upper edge and by central ridge in the blade. Handle slabs can not compensate
for that and are not as easily replaceable as solid wooden handle. If you made your shovel from steel thick enough its weight will go up and it will loose a lot of the speed..
To be really useful full tang must have some thickness to prevent bending. The thickness of cold steel spetnaz shovel is 2 mm and thickness of the original is about 1,3 mm. That
is not enough to ensure stiffness of the handle. Stiffness of the blade is achieved by bending the upper edge and by central ridge in the blade. Handle slabs can not compensate
for that and are not as easily replaceable as solid wooden handle. If you made your shovel from steel thick enough its weight will go up and it will loose a lot of the speed..
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2000
- Messages
- 1,363
Look at the Glock spade. They are light and not bad at all. Best part is that they can bee fixed at 90 degrees.
The longer the handle (extended) the better. Digging is back breaking work with a short spade. A single pick axe head for breaking ground and cutting roots would be good too. Wood saw that works fitted in the handle is a nice touch. Keep the weight down and all in a compact package. It shouldn't break. This would be a Gucci bit of kit if made right.
Good luck.
The longer the handle (extended) the better. Digging is back breaking work with a short spade. A single pick axe head for breaking ground and cutting roots would be good too. Wood saw that works fitted in the handle is a nice touch. Keep the weight down and all in a compact package. It shouldn't break. This would be a Gucci bit of kit if made right.
Good luck.
Thanks Bill. Suvorov's book is a good one.
I have both the Cold Steel and the Glock. The Glock seems fragile. On the other hand Fred Perrin broke the Cold Steel handle while testing it. I haven't done much with either except camo the Cold Steel handle.
Take care,
bug
I have both the Cold Steel and the Glock. The Glock seems fragile. On the other hand Fred Perrin broke the Cold Steel handle while testing it. I haven't done much with either except camo the Cold Steel handle.
Take care,
bug
Bug,
Would you be able to provide me with information on how Fred Perrin broke the handle on the shovel. This will help me decide as to which modifications are necessary.Please have no hard feelings about me disagreeng with your opinion. This is what forums are for. Besides I am really more interested in an all around tool than a weapon. Thank you. Alex.
Would you be able to provide me with information on how Fred Perrin broke the handle on the shovel. This will help me decide as to which modifications are necessary.Please have no hard feelings about me disagreeng with your opinion. This is what forums are for. Besides I am really more interested in an all around tool than a weapon. Thank you. Alex.
Here is the information you requested.
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Set/2292/shovelrev.htm
bug
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Set/2292/shovelrev.htm
bug
Fandorin I have used the cold steel version hear in Australia to dig in a very dry clay it was the only shovel that I haven't broken during that day I personally destroyed one Australian army one old U.S. and one NATO 3-way folding all this shovels the first two had broken handle and NATO was all but destroyed. A friend returned to camp with my shovel I finished digging the tranche but what I fond is that a short handle is a reel pain in the ass so the only thing I'd want is one with a longer handle and anything that strengthen it will be appreciated. Fandorin can you send me an later at ozpyro2001@yahoo.com then the shovel is complete I would probably order one.
P.S. what is your opinion of the Vladimir Vasilliev and his system.
P.S. what is your opinion of the Vladimir Vasilliev and his system.
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2001
- Messages
- 106
I have used the Cold Steel shovel a lot and like it.
I would prefer a little longer handle and a little smaller blade. I've already sharpened my blade to about an inch narrower and like it better.
I also put a Spiderco serrated edge on it which I like very much more than the straight edge. Of course in the field the Spiderco edge will eventually be worn and sharpened back down to a straight edge.
I would prefer a little longer handle and a little smaller blade. I've already sharpened my blade to about an inch narrower and like it better.
I also put a Spiderco serrated edge on it which I like very much more than the straight edge. Of course in the field the Spiderco edge will eventually be worn and sharpened back down to a straight edge.
Son of Triglav
BANNED
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2000
- Messages
- 90
Fandorin, have you thought of making a saw-teeth along one (longer) egde of a shovel? You practicaly get a saw. A welcomed modification for utility purposes. I have Axis shovel from WW1 which has saw-teethed egde.Aside from this, it's basically the same as spetsnaz or cold steel shovel.
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2001
- Messages
- 32
Been a loooong time, who would have thought that we'd all want Soviet shovels?!?!? -
I have to agree that one of the most versatile tools that I have is my CS "Spetz" shovel. It's chops, it digs, makes snow shelters, throws like a tomahawk..... It's a good thing too! Because the "Spetznaz Survival Machette" offered from Sovietsky it a REAL piece of garbage. The shovel does it all.
I'd cook my pancakes over the camp fire using it as a frying pan, except that I don't want to soften the steel!
>RadioRay ..._ ._
>
I have to agree that one of the most versatile tools that I have is my CS "Spetz" shovel. It's chops, it digs, makes snow shelters, throws like a tomahawk..... It's a good thing too! Because the "Spetznaz Survival Machette" offered from Sovietsky it a REAL piece of garbage. The shovel does it all.
I'd cook my pancakes over the camp fire using it as a frying pan, except that I don't want to soften the steel!
>RadioRay ..._ ._
>