need help understanding metals

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kelleymmm1

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Aug 3, 2006
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I have a BM osborne made of D2 and my buddie has a griptilian made of 154cm and I was really impressed with the feel of his knife. I have been debating selling mine and getting something made of 154cm. Well my question is wich blade holds an edge longer and is generally tougher.Being that my knife is new and so was his, mine did not seem no were near as sharp.Maybe thats just how they sent them out. So I plan to send it back to get it resharpened. I have read about these metals and realize that D2 is higher in carbon and 154cm is higher in crome so does that mean that d2 is harder while 154cm is more rust resistence. Im just looking for an EDC thats sharp as a razor and stays that way. Any advice is nice thanks.
 
As far as I know, D2 is both tougher and has better edge retention, and it is harder as well. The only downside is that I hear it's decently hard to sharpen.
 
Im not a steel master but I do know d2 is a very good steel. I dont have any knives in 154 cm but it is also good. I think d2 holds an edge longer in what ive seen and it can get razor sharp(sometimes knives just come not as sharp--its best to learn to sharpen knives yourself=))

gluck, i know i wasnt much help but i tried
 
kelleymmm1 said:
I have a BM osborne made of D2 and my buddie has a griptilian made of 154cm and I was really impressed with the feel of his knife. I have been debating selling mine and getting something made of 154cm. Well my question is wich blade holds an edge longer and is generally tougher.Being that my knife is new and so was his, mine did not seem no were near as sharp.Maybe thats just how they sent them out. So I plan to send it back to get it resharpened. I have read about these metals and realize that D2 is higher in carbon and 154cm is higher in crome so does that mean that d2 is harder while 154cm is more rust resistence. Im just looking for an EDC thats sharp as a razor and stays that way. Any advice is nice thanks.
Click to expand...

I doubt you will notice difference in regular use. In theory D2 has big carbides and need to be sharpen with diamonds, 154CM gives you finer edge, but you need to be skilled in sharpening to achive this difference. You may look at ZDP189 wich is current supersteel on the market, but Benchmade do not have it - only Spyderco and Kershaw.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
kelleymmm1,

D2 is a high carbon, high wear, semi-stainless steel.
(it's stainless enough for every day use in my opinion)

154CM is a bit lower in carbon, and less wear resistent then D2
but is a stainless steel and is a solid performer.

D2 will outperform 154CM especially if you cut highly abbrasive
material (cardboard, carpets, etc.)

D2 has larger carbides then 154CM meaning that with 154CM
you can attain a finer edge then D2.
Since it is high wear it is also more difficult to sharpen (see below for
sharpening details).

Not that you can attain a hair poppin edge with D2 just
not as fine as 154CM.
In reality most people wouldn't notice the difference.

I like both but given the choice between the two I'd personally
go with the D2. That being said I have carried both and continue to
carry 154CM and many others. There's more to a knife then the steel.

With D2 I'd invest in a Spyderco Sharpmaker. The trick
to keeping D2 sharp is to not let it get really dull in the first place.
A touch up every now and then will lessen the chance of
you having to spend some quality time sharpening.
Spyderco also has diamond rods... which will cut down
on sharpening time significantly... if your D2 gets really dull at
some point.

EDIT: I used "can't" instead of "can" for the 'hair-poppin' line.
 
Hardness is an effect of heat treat and tempering, not the steel. 154CM can be taken to a high RC or D2 could be left soft.

I would take D2 over 154CM but not CPM154.
 
This is from Crucible Data sheets:

CPM-06.jpg


You may see that actually 154CM rated by Crucible same in toughness but better in wear resistance, which is easy to belive because chomium carbides are very hard. But again it is not such a significant difference like between both of this and CPM S90V (wich was introduced by Crucible for knife industry to replace CPM S60V but rejected in favour to less expensive and more machinable CPN S30V).

Thanks, Vassili.
 
nozh2002 .... that's interesting (the chart above).

Thanks for the info. I thought D2 was closer to S30V.

So what is the factor that causes D2 to hold an edge
longer then 154CM? I know form personal experience
this is true and from studies Cliff Stamp has conducted.
 
msiley said:
nozh2002 .... that's interesting (the chart above).

Thanks for the info. I thought D2 was closer to S30V.

So what is the factor that causes D2 to hold an edge
longer then 154CM? I know form personal experience
this is true and from studies Cliff Stamp has conducted.
Click to expand...

I am not an expert, I guess edge holding and wear resistance related but different things. Also it is up to HT, may be 154CM more sencitive? Like O1 steel known for being very tolerant to HT so even amateur knifemaker may make good blade. I have ATS34 heat treated by Boss - it may outperform many other knives with many other steels.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Kelley, read this real quick.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=368828

It will give you specific names and reasons behind the different properties of steel and what can add or detract from them. Its short and not to technical but full of good info. Edge retention can be a function of several variables and as Nozh has pointed out the quality and percision of the HT may be a bigger factor than the steel. For a slicer with edge retention I like to make a hard knife but I wouldnt give one like that to an average knife user becuase they would chip or dammage it.
Heres a taste.

"The ability of a blade to hold an edge. Many people
make the mistake of thinking wear resistance and edge holding are the
same thing. Most assuredly, it is not; or rather, it usually is not.
Edge holding is job-specific. That is, edge holding is a function of
wear resistance, strength, and toughness. But different jobs require
different properties for edge holding. For example, cutting through
cardboard (which often has hard embedded impurities), toughness
becomes extremely important, because micro-chipping is often the
reason for edge degradation. Whittling very hard wood, strength
becomes very important for edge-holding, because the primary reason
for edge degradation is edge rolling and impaction. Wear resistance
becomes more important for edge holding when very abrasive materials,
such as carpet, are being cut. And for many jobs, where corrosion-
inducing materials are contacted (such as food prep), corrosion can
affect the edge quickly, so corrosion resistance has a role to play
as well."
 
going only on personal experience with both steels, I would say that D2 holds its edge a little bit better, but is way harder to sharpen and doesn't seem to be able to get quite as sharp, or at least I can't seem to get it as sharp.

Like others have said, lots of things play into these properties though, and they are both very good steels as long as they are properly heat treated.
 
kelleymmm1 said:
I have a BM osborne made of D2 and my buddie has a griptilian made of 154cm and I was really impressed with the feel of his knife. I have been debating selling mine and getting something made of 154cm. Well my question is wich blade holds an edge longer and is generally tougher.Being that my knife is new and so was his, mine did not seem no were near as sharp.Maybe thats just how they sent them out. So I plan to send it back to get it resharpened. I have read about these metals and realize that D2 is higher in carbon and 154cm is higher in crome so does that mean that d2 is harder while 154cm is more rust resistence. Im just looking for an EDC thats sharp as a razor and stays that way. Any advice is nice thanks.
Click to expand...

Some blades stay sharper longer than others. That is due to a number of factors, not just the alloy. Aside from alloy, there is also heat treat, which sets the hardness/toughness, and blade design (including edge angle).

But, All knives get dull with use. Sooner or later, you're going to have to sharpen your EDC. When you buy that new super blade, or if you keep your 154CM blade, buy a Sharpmaker. Then your friend can envy your super sharp blade.
 
Fehrman making knives out of 3V. With 9V and 10V - Bos does not heat treat all of them - even CPM S90V he can not do, require more temperature his equipment can handle, so this mean that only limited number of knifemakers able to HT it because majority using Bos service.

Thanks, Vassili.

And you may see why Crucible intended to replace CPM 440V (S60V) with CPM S90V and offers CPM s30V as a cheap "PM entry level".
 
thank you all for the advice I have a much better understanding of my situation I am going to keep the knife and will definitely keep this knife like someone said there is more to the knife than just the alloy. I would like to send this one off to get sharpened, I have 2 others to practice on until I get sharpening right and I want this one sharpened right the first time. Im also with M Wadel cmp 9v looks like the holy grail of knifesteels going by that chart so thank you all for the assistance.
 
To be absolutely fair I should post this Yasuki Speciality Steel diagram too:

YSS.gif


Thanks, Vassili
 
M Wadel said:
cpm 9v looks like the holy grail of knifesteels, anyone tried it?
Click to expand...

hmm i might take that back, did some investigating and cpm 9v contains the following: carbon 1.9% Cr 5.25% V 9.1% Mo 1.3%

trust me thats alot of carbon, and alot of carbon means mucho brittle, and it also contains 15.65% of non iron alloying elements, me personally i doubt that chart has something to do with reality but thats just me, common sense tell me that no steel containing that amount of alloying elements + the enormous amont of carbon is tougher than lets say 154cm. any metallurgist in here who think the same?? i mean i might be wrong, but i just doent make sense no matter how its produced (cpm). powdermetal just lets you take the steel 2-3hrc higher with the same toughness, it wont make the steel tougher per se iirc. am i wrong?
 
I have, like most of you, read endless threads about D2 being better than 154CM, and S30V being this or that, etc., etc.

I have knives in all three steels. I agree with what a few others said. You will most likely NOT SEE A DIFFERENCE..... except in sharpening. Both my D2 knives are considerably harder to attain a fine, razor edge on. Considerably harder (I say again for those who didn;t hear the first time or maybe thought I was muttering) :).

I like D2 and, after hacking away at several mesquite branches, it does seem to hold "its" edge slightly longer that the others. I say "its" edge because D2's edge is not as sharp as the 154CM and S30V. I can get these two steels razor sharp in just minutes on the sharpmaker.

I'm not saying the D2 is dull when I finish with it..... it'll sure enough cut your finger down to the bone, but I cannot get it scary sharp. I mean, I want the blade so sharp that my dogs won;t come near me when they see it in my hand.

If a guy is judging a knife by the steel used in it, he's making a big mistake...in my opinion. I like 154CM and S30V so much that I'm hesitating getting BM's new 201 Activator plus because it's only offered in D2. (Now here I go judging a knife by its steel! Ha!) I really like Snody's knife designs, and I think the BM201 is one of their best recent offerings, but I find myself wishing for one of the other steels.

After moaning and whinning that Ontario didn;t offer a RAT-5 in D2, and now that I own and use two D2 knives, I'm ready to just get a 1095 carbon RAT-5. My 1095 carbon knife is sharp as a razor, and I have no problems keeping it that way.

Get your S30V, 15CM, and 1095, and don;t look back. You'll never know the difference. D2 is good, I'm not knocking it, I'm saying only that the differences are for the scientists.
 
nozh2002 said:
To be absolutely fair I should post this Yasuki Speciality Steel diagram too:

Thanks, Vassili
Click to expand...

Au contraire, Thank you Vassili.

That's one of the nicer charts I've seen. Thanks for sharing it with us.
 
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