Need help with getting a grip on Waterstones

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Harpoon1

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Apr 3, 2011
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After searching though the archives, doing the google thing and wearing out Youtube watching Ken Swartz and Chefknivestogo videos. I have come to the conclusion that I still don't really have any more of an idea now on which waterstones to get and/or why, than I did when I started! Well almost anyway.

Clay binders, ceramic binders, glass stones, fused green carbide abrasives, aluminum oxide abrasive, silicon oxide abrasives, Pro-Glass, blah, blah, blah,..........Ume series, Bamboo series, Superstones, , Naturals, blah, blah, blah,.........................WTF!

Watch the videos and all you get is " oh yeah, that feels great", "oh, nice slurry/mud" and my favorite "another winner!". :D

The you go to purchase a "stone" and more often than not there is no information, (none, nada,zip) on what the binder or abrasive is, well at least in English. :eek: Or, even what types of steel the stone was intended for.

So, where can I go to "get a clue" on waterstones?

I did stumble across this in the archives, thanks "Knifenut 1013" and it looks promising.

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/wordpress/?p=672

Thanks in advance!
 
I have fairly good knowledge of a few types of stones and could give you a more in-depth answer (possibly) but I need to know the specific questions.

You can search for a long time and find very little information on waterstones. A lot of things like forming a mud and using the mud to refine the surface or enhance appearance is not something you can really explain. I can tell you the basics but it will sound no different than you have likely read.

Picking the right waterstones is mainly about what you want them to do. Basic sharpening and sword sharpening would have drastically different choices.
 
You can search for a long time and find very little information on waterstones.
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You got that right!

In general, I'm only interested in basic knife sharpening. Just plain vanilla working edges, with the occasional polished and somewhat "refined" one. So far I am mostly hand sharpening 1095CV, Hitachi #1, Super Blue and "cheap" SS kitchen knives. With the goal of eventually moving on to some of the harder, more wear resistant steels, D2, VG-10, S30V, ZDP189, CPM-M4, CTS-XHP, CTS-20CP, M390, etc,etc..........

With that in mind, what abrasives and/or binder matrix is more desirable for the harder steels? Or, should I just get some more DMT Diamond's and forget waterstones for "super steels"? If not, then how do you make an informed decision when the manufacturer doesn't list what the stone is made of? For example with the Nubatama stones, Bamboo and Plum series, with multiple stones with the same grit size but obviously with different intended purposes. And, without any information on the type of abrasives or binders or intended use. At least as far as I can tell.

Case in point, 3 Nubatamas. One Bamboo, two Plum, all 1k grit, with what seems to be obviously different intended purposes, yet nothing about their construction.

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/nu1kbast.html

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/nubatamaume1k.html

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/nubatamaume1k1.html

So what gives? Which one does what?

FWIW, here's what I have as of now, in chronological order.

"Starter" set. Works reasonably well with carbon steels.
King "Deluxe" 1k
King 6K

Then based on your recommendation in another thread, purchased these. Very nice, night and day difference in feel and results. Have only tried softer carbon-steels so far though.
Arashiyama 1K
Arashiyama 6K

I got these to speed things up and get going.
Shapton Pro 220
Naniwa Chosera 400

Another one of your recommendations.
Naniwa Omura 150
Naniwa "Green Brick" 2k
Kitayama 8k
 
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Harpoon1 said:
So far I am mostly hand sharpening 1095CV, Hitachi #1, Super Blue and "cheap" SS kitchen knives. With the goal of eventually moving on to some of the harder, more wear resistant steels, D2, VG-10, S30V, ZDP189, CPM-M4, CTS-XHP, CTS-20CP, M390, etc,etc..........
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The only two stones I would not recommend for the super-duper-uper alloys (other than Aogami Super) are Naniwa's synthetic Omura and Aoto. Other than that, they should all work. Heck, my King Deluxe 800 works on CPM-S90V.

Of course, aren't you already using Atomas and Choseras in your EdgePro? Why not stay with that?

Or you could explain your skill level and knife shapes to Ken Schwartz and see what he suggests. My guess is that he'll recommend Glasstones. If I were a stone-recommender and weren't so caught up in my new-stone joy of a Sigma Power 3F 700 brick of diabolical steel-eating, I'd recommend Glasstones. They're more forgiving than other waterstones and require less pampering and leave a polish and sharpness that seems to be higher than their stated grit and particle size suggest.
 
TB
Of course, aren't you already using Atomas and Choseras in your EdgePro? Why not stay with that?
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I am and it, they, work fine. Great actually.

However, it's learning a new skill, the process and the education that I'm really after. I guess I should shoot Ken an email and see what he has to say.

Thanks.
 
TB

Reading through it again. I'm not questioning my results with the waterstones. I am getting a sharp edge, otoh, I want to know WHY a certain stone works on some steels, yet not on others. Then, why I should purchase one stone but not another.
 
I like sets of stones, I use diamond for high wear steels and waterstones for most everything else. Selecting the right stone for the steel can make a difference in how well it sharpens and performs in use.

You have some nice stones now but as you know I don't believe one does all. I like the "right tool for the job" analogy, you can sharpen with many things but using the right tool does so efficiently and effectively producing "better" results. How much of these "better" results you see will only be limited by how intensely study your own progress.

Finding out about stones is a long and difficult process that doesn't exactly get easier with experience. I find on average I spend 6 months doing research, reading reviews, and watching videos to just get a idea of what I'm jumping into and even then it can be a surprise. For example: I plan on making a set from the nubatama stones but probably won't complete that set until about this time next year. Even within one series the stones work differently so as I watch the videos I find the stones with the characteristics I like. The differences are many but another example would be, the ume stones would be good general purpose sharpening stones while the bamboo series is more for the artistic sharpener.

The "one" stone or set is a search we all have if a enthusiasts of the sharp edge but few realize is a life long journey. Trying new stones will be a individual experience as we each search for different qualities and have different needs. I like muddy stones that act like naturals while others like something like a glass stone which is on the other side of the spectrum of stone characteristics.

From my point of view and the direction you are looking to go I'd say diamond.
 
Knifenut1013

From my point of view and the direction you are looking to go I'd say diamond.
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I knew you were going to say that!:eek:


I'll take your advice, however, I'm still very interested in learning more about waterstones.

Where do you draw the line for diamonds and waterstones, what do you consider "high wear steels" ?

What about binders, are ceramic matrix stones as a rule, 1.(always) ,2.(usually), 3.(sometimes), "harder" than a Clay stones?

With regard to abrasives, could you elaborate on the general difference between "fused green carbides", aluminum oxide and silicon oxide and their intended use?

In an earlier post you commented that the "Naniwa Omura 150, Naniwa "Green Brick" 2k and the Kitayama 8k" would work with Super Steels. While I'll accept that using diamond stones would be optimal, why would this set of stones work with high wear steels, yet others won't, or as well?


Thanks.
 
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More is not always more. You have good waterstones and unless you professionally sharpen the difference between a 6k arashiyama and a 8k kitiyama might seem like a waste of money for what little gain you will find. you can actually thank Thom for his experience and mini-review of the Omura and its pairing with the GB. That was just another "set" not really anything different.

How well a stone works I believe is a relation to abrasive content but I couldn't tell you much about all the green and black carbide abrasives that are used, I'm still too new to waterstones to understand the making-of vs the ability part of it. If you spend enough time you could sharpen S30V on the arashiyama stone but its not going to be fun. The stone cuts the high wear steel so slowly that one mistake or inpatient rush to remove steel will result in a dull edge. Thats only part of the story though because if the heat treatment is real good like strider S30V then forget about it, it will laugh at your stones. Switching to diamond would be like going back to 1095 on waterstones, it just cuts it the way it should. It's not ultra fast! As they are depicted just correct.

How do you know? When you ask yourself is this even working? or when the brain says... Hahaha this is like rubbing glass together! :(

I know its not the complete answer you were looking for but its one I can't find either. I think you would need to talk with a abrasives engineer from one of the major stone companies to get those kind of answers. Truthfully though, I don't think he/she could tell you either. It becomes very individual for the knives and stones so I really don't want to make a general statement that only happens with one steel from one maker on one stone.

Some general statements I can make though are, naniwa stones will work with about anything and polish very high, mud stones "polish" with a haze or dull finish and Excel on larger bevels, stones that retain metal usually produce a glossy polish, most all will favor carbon steels.
 
Yeah I agree, it's unlikely I'll purchase(need) another "fine" stone, at least anytime soon. I believe I saw that the 8K Kitayama really performed more like a 10 or 12K stone. So it seemed it would possibly provide more of a jump up in performance from the Arashiyama 6K than the small difference in the grit size would initially lead you to believe. OTOH, maybe the Arashiyama performs like a higher grit stone too. Dunno!

Anyway, I guess my interest appears to be with 1K-2K range stones. Already have the low and high ends covered, for my purposes anyway. And have an EP and Diamonds for the "Super Steels".

So I'm considering the small Nubatama Ume 1k, the "speckled" one and a Bester 1.2K. I don't suspect I'll see much if any gain in actual performance, it's more out of curiosity and acquiring more experience with different types of stones than anything.

Any thoughts on those two?

And thanks again for taking the time to walk me through this.
 
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The kitiyama does polish very high and 10k is about right but the arashiyama is also a over achiever that can easily be considered a 8k.

I have never used them but the bester stones just don't appeal to me. The nubatama stones seem promising but they are still new so I try and keep my excitement low until I actually get hands on experience. Aoto type stones is where you should look such as the Naniwa 2k "green brick", Nubatama 1.2k, synnthetic Aoto, or maybe even a natural Aoto. Careful though, natural stones can have a strong draw and are about 10x more complex than synthetics.

The ume 1k brick is the one that would have my interest over the speckled one.
 
Harpoon1 said:
I am and it, they, work fine. Great actually.

However, it's learning a new skill, the process and the education that I'm really after.
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That's cool, but the reason I'd curmudgeonedly suggest you stay with your fold-up Zen machine is because with the EdgePro, you're balancing pressure over a 25mm wide section. With benchstones, that area can grow to 70mm and beyond. That extra width will allow more pressure to do more good on benchstones, but will make it very difficult to go back to your EdgePro. Been there.

Now if you have the Pro model instead of the Apex, contact Rob Babcock and beg, plea, and bribe him to make a copy of his attachment that lets you use full sized benchstones.
 
Already have the Naniwa 2k "Green Brick".

Why the preference for the brick 1k Nubatama over the speckled one?

The Bester looked like it would be quite different, harder,produce less mud, than the Arashiyama and why I chose it to try. Maybe I'm way off?

Thanks
 
I must remember to suggest things you like and not me, my preference to muddy stones can get the best of me and make me recommend stones I would like instead of what you are asking for. The speckled stone would be more along the lines of what you wanted.
 
Well, the problem is I don't know what I want!

I guess I naively thought the mud would be beneficial with a finishing stone. Not so much with a medium stone.
No harm in trying both.

Thanks.
 
thombrogan said:
That's cool, but the reason I'd curmudgeonedly suggest you stay with your fold-up Zen machine is because with the EdgePro, you're balancing pressure over a 25mm wide section. With benchstones, that area can grow to 70mm and beyond. That extra width will allow more pressure to do more good on benchstones, but will make it very difficult to go back to your EdgePro. Been there.

Now if you have the Pro model instead of the Apex, contact Rob Babcock and beg, plea, and bribe him to make a copy of his attachment that lets you use full sized benchstones.
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I'd like to follow up on this but replying(typing) on my IPhone is killing me! More whenI get home.
Thanks
 
Knifenut 1013 & ThomBrogan

Ah, a real keyboard!

Either one of you "pro" sharpeners or just an enthusiast?

Just curious, what type of knives do you two sharpen the most of, large bevel kitchen knives, hunting, small folders?

After watching more of Ken's video reviews, it dawned on me, they're all centered mostly around large bevel kitchen knives. Which in and of itself is fine but is not really where my focus is. So I'm wondering about his technique and the type of stones that may be more desirable for large bevel knives, i.e. soft & muddy, versus stones for very narrow bevel and small blades. Where with the latter, it seems to be more difficult to maintain the proper angles and where harder stones with less mud and slurry might be beneficial.

Also, what is the purpose with so many low grit options, for example just within the Nubatama Bamboo stones. There's a 120,150,180, 220, etc, etc,..... it seem at the low end your just trying to "hog" metal off at that stage so, what would you do with a 150 stone that you wouldn't do with either a 120 or 180 or even 220?

When sharpening narrow bevels (not the Micro-bevel if your using one but the primary edge), for instance a on a medium folder. Do you normally only use trailing strokes or saw back and forth or only into the stone?

BTW, it's just an Apex, so Rob is off the hook. At least for now!:D
Thanks
 
I professionally sharpen specializing in high end steels and Japanese kitchen knives. I enjoy sharpening scandi grinds too :)

I personally do not agree with the common method of straight back-n-forth with no sweeping movement. I use a combo of the edge trailing method taught by Murray Carter and convex grinding on flat stones that's similar to sword sharpening on a much smaller scale. All factors of how a knife is sharpened depend on the individual knife.

So many stones for lots of options.
 
I'm a rank amateur sharpener who used to mostly sharpen pocketknives and now sharpen cooking knives as well. First learned of Ken in the Keeping Sharp forum at knifeforums where a lot of his advice helped me with sharpening folders (and later kitchen knives) on benchstones and even Post-It notes of all things.

Betting most of his videos for coarser waterstones (4,000 and lower) are for kitchen cutlery because he supplies Nubatama's knives and stones to Chef Knives to Go.

I can vouch for knifenut1013's credentials because he talked me through getting my Kershaw Shallot S110V to having a hair-whittling edge over the internets (where the written word is even harder to interpret). He later disassmbled, cleaned, replaced my wretched beltsander and coarse diamond benchston marks on the blade with a satin finish, reassembled, and sharpened the same knife, but the getting that odd steel to tree-top arm hairs was a mystery I couldn't solve and I could get everything else to do it.

I currently sharpen non-serrarted, narrow-beveled folders and fixed blades with a Sigma Power 3F 700 Carbon brick of demonic steel eating followed by either a Naniwa 5K SuperStone or the 8K side of a Norton 1K/8K waterstone and finish with a leather strop loaded with Hand-American 0.5µ diamond spray, but it's not for everyone.
 
Thanks guys.

FWIW, I gave up on the Bester stone after doing some more research. After watching another "thousand" youtube video reviews and way too much agonizing, I went with the "small" Plum 1k and 800 & 4K Bamboo. We'll see.
 
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