Need some opinions and advice

[cpd670]

A guy at work had a WWII family member pass away a few months ago.
I was given several firearms and these two swords to research and sell.

http://s245.photobucket.com/user/cpd670/slideshow/craigs

From what research I have done:

The first sword I believe is an Italian Carabinieri Sword.
The only makers mark is a CA. It is on the right side of the blade just at the hilt.
These swords were issued by Italy up to the start of WWII and is a French pattern 1816 sword.
The unsharpened blade is 23.5" long and the overall length with scabbard is 29.75"
The leather scabbard is in very good plus condition with no splitting or tears.
The brass hilt and brass on the scabbard have some tarnish.


The second sword I believe is an Imperial German Officer's Jawless Lion Head Sword
Manufactured by E F Horster.
Unsharpened blade is in excellent shape with no rust, nicks or other damage.
Blade is not etched and is 29" long and the overall length with the scabbard is 35.5"
Nickel metal scabbard with double hanger indicates it was issued prior to 1906
The grip is sharkskin with a little wear and the wire wrap is tight with no breaks.
The brass grip has some tarnish but is still shiny under the portapee.
The portapee appears green and gold to me under the protected areas.

I've met with a few military collectors in the area and have not heard the same thing twice.
Here's a list of what I've been told about each one.

Top sword:
It's a fake, made in the 60's.
It's Spanish or French.

Bottom sword.
It's Prussian not German.
It's artillery, cavalry, or forestry.
The scabbard is a replacement.
It is an officers sword.
It is an NCO sword.


Now for my questions:

Top:
Why wouldn't this sword be sharpened and would you sharpen it?
As a plain utilitarian sword I would expect it to be somewhat common, where are they all?
It isn't very long like I would expect for a cavalry sword, but for a foot soldier I think it would be pretty effective.
Being brass the handle should polish up nice, would cleaning it destroy the value?
Would sharpening it destroy the value and if not how would you sharpen it?

Bottom:
I'm almost positive it is not artillery as it does not have crossed canons anywhere on it.
Cavalry is also doubtful since it isn't very long, but it has 6 different crossed swords on the right side of the hilt.
The portapee usually designates unit, but I can't find anything even close to this one, what unit is it for?
Would polishing the brass and cleaning the portapee destroy the value.
How would you clean the portapee (Woolite and cold water)?

This is not a selling thread.
What would you value each sword at?
I am seriously thinking about keeping them and displaying them in my man cave.
I would like to give the owner a fair price for them or if I sell them get a fair price for them.

Any information you can provide or opinions are greatly appreciated.
If you need more photos just let me know.

 

[philbro]

The first one is definately French 1816 pattern, I've got one that was made into a fighting knife for the trenches in WW1. My G Grandfather brought it back.
There's no markings at all on that, so you're lucky. Except for the brass handle it's very crudely made.
As yours is unsharpened, It might be a late one that was just used for dress purposes, as all the older ones were used in some form or other during WW1.
Sorry I can't be of any more help.

 

[gadgetgeek]

I can see the first sword being a dress sword, maybe for a cadet or a lower ranking officer. I would say leave it as is, the steel may be super soft and sharpening may be worthless. My FEELING (no evidence to support this) is that if it were designated for combat, it would have had a steel grip with a wrap, where as bronze just screams spit and polish to me. Then again, the time frame of the sword was red-coats, shiny buttons and march shoulder to shoulder to war. So who knows. It could also be a fake, so more research needs to be done, including how commonly they were made. But it doesn't seem likely to me.

The second one is really nice. Its possible given that its old enough to be Prussian, or one of the other German states, or whatever they are called. My gut agrees that it wouldn't be cavalry, more like infantry, and someone of either reasonably high rank, or social status. Its possible that the scabbard isn't original, but my gut says no. If it is nickle steel, everything else it could have been replaced with would be cheaper, and obvious. (if it was modern it would be plated brass or aluminum) It could be a newer sword in an older scabbard, but I also don't think so. If it was a cheap combat sword, then maybe, but this was obviously someone who had a reason to carry a very nice parade piece.

With not other evidence, I would clean them both up to parade ground shine, and hang them. Maybe find an antique furniture specialist to ask about cleaning the portapee.
I could not begin to think about value as I have no idea. I think your experts have no idea either and are just blowing smoke. I know nothing, I'm just going by my gut and a little logic.