Needed: Advice from Bladesmiths

Joined
Oct 12, 1999
Messages
1,237
A relative newbie when it comes to knives, I want to take the plunge and attempt to finish one of the rough HI blades (as discussed in the "blades-only" threads). My questions are these: how much machine-grinding can be done on the blade without destroying its temper? And if you do any grinding, how do you know when to stop to let the blade cool before continuing? For someone like me who doesn't know what he's doing, would it be best to do everything by hand? If so, what else would be needed except for files? And, if using only files, how would I finish off the concave sides of the blade? Finally, can anyone recommend a good book about knifemaking and a source for the proper files? Thanks a bunch for any help anyone can give.



[This message has been edited by Steven F (edited 09-14-2000).]
 
I have a book that I think you would find useful, Steven. Please check your mail.

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Cheers,
Brian

He who finishes with the most toys wins.
 
Steven, forget files on the allready hardened blades. I would suggest the following:

1. If there's still black scales from forging on the blade, pickle it away. This means to submerge the whole (!) blade in vinegar for about 24 hours and scrub off the black residue with a brush and water afterwards.

2. Grind the blade to the finished form using 40 grit sanding paper or, if you have access to a belt grinder, 40 grit belts. Grinding on a machine should be done bare handed and with great care. If the edge gets too hot to touch, cool in water. If it turns blue from the heat you messed up the heat treat.

3. Finish by using finer sanding paper or belts up to a 600 grit finish. For a using knife, thats all. For a wall hanger you may use a buffer to polish to a high shine.

Achim
 
:
From my experience with the unfinished blades you will certainly need to follow the advice already given here. I have to agree that a coarse sand paper or abrasive stones like a cheap carburundum stone with a smooth and coarse side would go a long ways in finishing the knife. Files won't cut the hardend areas well at all.

The softer spine and unhardened areas can be worked with files even though it is fairly slow gong. The fun is the anticipation and watching the knife appear as You want it to be.

I am leaving the hammer dingy finish on mine as that's what I wanted. There will be more of it on the Hanuman blade by Sanu than the Chainpuri blade by Kumar.
Kumar's blade almost appears as if it had been rolled between two smooth steel rollers, it's That Good!!!

Uncle Bill is also most certainly correct in his obserrvation about one's opinion's of the kami's
skill !!

Just carving a traditional handle can be Very Challengeing!!!! And Especally with a very hard wood like the African Knobthorn. Manzanita Burl comes to mind when I am working on the African wood. I have burnt high speed tool steel drills in the manzanita burls before!!!

Good luck on your project!!!


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>>>>---¥vsa---->®

"There's no trick in being a humorist when you have the whole government working for you."

...............Will Rogers......

Khukuri FAQ
 
SF,
These blades are not tempered, they are edge hardened. If at any point the blade is too hot for your hands, it's too hot. If it starts to get a hot spot, just let it air cool, or you might cause it to become brittle there. If a general heating, just dip in warm water.
Dan
 
Thanks for the adivice, one and all. I'll keep you posted as to my progress. Not wanting to damage the blade in any way, I plan on really taking my time and making this a long-term project.

Brian, I'll check my email as soon as I get home -- and thanks.
 
The hammer-and-anvil stage of making a blade is, IMHO, the quickest, easiest and most enjoyable. Grinding, sharpening and polishing take much longer, in my experience, and offer far more opportunities for ruining the work beyond all hope of repair...

After shaping the steel bar or blank and forging in the bevels, adjusting curve profiles, straightening out twists & kinks &c, but before hardening/tempering, is (IMHO) the best time to do the vast majority of the cold work, when the blade is in its annealed state and soft enough to be cut with a file. I start by skimming off the super-hard 'skin' of scale, cementation &c with an angle-grinder (extremely carefully, since it's very easy indeed to wreck the blade at this stage by 'digging in' with the grinder disk if it's not held absolutely steady and straight, causing humps and hollows &c); then I file out any irregularities, and 'plane' the blade flat and true by draw-filing, at the rate of approx 1 hour per 6 inches of blade (Japanese swordsmiths use a specialised tool like a woodworkers' drawknife for this process)

If I've done the filing properly, I should now be able to get an acceptable rough finish on the belt grinder.

Then it's heat-treatment time (*the* most nerve-racking point in the whole game; is the blade going to warp on hardening, or not..? If it comes out of the quench looking like a banana, and trickling water on the convex side of the still-hot warped blade doesn't pull out the warp, there's nothing for it but to anneal, hammer out the warp and try again with the oil slightly more pre-heated, hoping this time it'll come out OK)

After hardening, the belt grinder should whisk off the baked-on oil residues, firescale &c in half an hour or so. Tempering should leave nothing but some pretty colors, best removed by hand with emory cloth (ranging from 'killer' to 'imperceptible' grit size) followed by buffing, polishing with loose grit on a rag rubber, cleanup with Autosol and fitting of hilts & furniture.

Cleaning up a blade already heat-treated presents special problems. I'd forget all about the angle-grinder, unless fitted with a paper-backed sanding disk or fine-grit flapwheel (and even then I'd worry about wrecking the hardness of the edge by overheating; see below) Your problem will be cutting the 'skin'. The kamis seem to use a grinding wheel like a bench-grinder; rather them than me. I can see where the wheel allows them to grind into the recesses of fullers &c and follow the contours of cannel-ground (curved or 'teardrop') blade sections, but unless you've had years of practice, as they have, I wouldn't risk it; a bench-grinder can screw up a nice blade in the time it takes for your concentration to slip just a tad... The belt-grinder is also of limited usefulness in this context, since most khuks don't present nice flat, straight planes; they have fullers and concave/convex sections. The roller end of the belt grinder will get into some of these nooks & crannies, but probably not all. Scythe-stones, slipstones and emory cloth will get the job done, but only at the expense of many long, tedious hours.

The tool I'd suggest, if available, is the Dremel, with a selection of flapwheels, abrasive wheels, circular stones and if possible, diamond-dust burrs (if you know a dentist or dental technician, ask nicely; they tend to use them a few times and sling them out with plenty of cut still on them for brutal work such as steel polishing) to get rid of skin, scale, hammer pocks &c. It's slow going, but a darn sight quicker than hand work.

As regards overheating, the rule of thumb is; if it's too hot to hold, it's too hot, and should be cooled off in water or (if available) a water-soluble oil such as machinists' cutting oil (what we call 'suds' over here).

If you overheat, you won't 'kill' the edge, even if you overheat so much that the blade turns straw yellow or even blue; in effect you're tempering the blade, sacrificing hardness for flexibility. An uneven temper (some soft spots in an otherwise hard edge, for example) is, however, a real pain and can cause a whole lot of problems; and one of the glories of the khukuri is its zone-hardening. It'd be a real shame to compromise that. So; go slowly, and stop & quench as soon as it gets too hot to hold.


Once you've got an evenly ground surface, start the polishing process with flapwheels and carborundum-impregnated rubber wheels/tips until you reach a roughly reflective surface, at which point there's nothing for it but to go in with wet & dry emory cloth before buffing, polishing with loose grits &c.

It's messy, dirty, uncomfortable and extremely *boring* work, and the temptation to give up as soon as you've got a finish that's close enough for jazz is very strong; but a true mirror finish is an absolute joy and invariably worth the effort.

Anybody interested in forging and finishing blades, making hilts, furniture & scabbards &c &c will get tremendous help and pleasure from Dr Jim Hrisoulas' book ' The Complete Bladesmith ' (order online from www.paladin-press.com) which will tell you literally everything you need to know about bladesmithing, from getting started to forgewelding the finest Damascus. Dr H may have a turn-round time that makes medieval cathedral builders look swift (sorry, Rusty; still no word...) but he's one of the finest living bladesmiths and a very skilled and accomplished teacher and communicator.
 
I am getting a blade only too and have little experience with finishing it. So thanks for the great info.

I plan to do as much of it by hand as I can. Away from the edge the blade seems reasonably soft. I plan to use a file, sand paper, or 3M pad to remove the scaling and rust. Maybe I will buff it up with the buffing wheel on an electric drill.

Near the edge I might purchase a diamond impregnated file. I may just use my trusty old Lansky course stone. It removes metal quite fast when I am reprofiling the edge. I

I don't really know what I will do till the blade gets here and I find out how things go.

Will
 
Thanks again, guys! Maybe one of these days I'll know enough that I'll be able to pass on a little wisdom to some newbie.
smile.gif


And, Will, you and I can compare notes as we go along to help one another out. I'm sure we'll be able to use all the help we can get!
 
Steven, I'll be glad to compare notes. This will a learning experience and an adventure for me.

Will
 
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