Neophyte intro & (yawn) forge questions

Phil Dwyer

Phil Dwyer

Joined
Feb 28, 2006
Messages
3,494
Hello friends,

What a great forum for a newbie to use to try and unravel the mysteries, methodologies and challenges of knife making!

I've been reading through your numerous threads for a while now. Also have been hitting several other web resources such as knifehow.com, anvilfire.com, knivesby.com's how to make knives, Brannon's information on making knives, shopping eBay, etc, etc, etc... I'm starting to get a bit bleary-eyed!

But I'm getting ahead of myself. My name is Phyl Dwyer from Kealakekua, Hawaii. No sooner did I finally decide to write y'all, with finger tips poised on the keys of my laptop, my four year old boy let out a blood curdling scream in the yard just outside my window. Concurrently a fair sized feral pig let out a hair raising series of grunts mere feet from little Mikey. The speed with which I dashed out of the house to sort it all out was nothing compared to the swift dissappearing acts both Mikey and the sow performed (fortunately in opposite directions to each other).

Anyway, I'm a farmer (which means I'm broker than broke), but have a modicum of craft savvy. In years past I made my living, such as it was, as a sculptor and jeweler. I progressed from antler carving, to silver fabrication, to constructing vacuum and centifugal lostwax casting machines, to small brass foundry work, to goldsmithing in Beverly Hills. Then a former sweetheart moved us to Hawaii and I took up computering. Spent several years at that, got lost in cyberspace and barely made it our alive. For the last several years I've been trying to turn dirt into money (aka, farming). Although my cows, goats, sheep, donkey, chickens, gardens, orchards and kids keep me pretty busy, I'm looking for something to do in my spare time (hahaha).

So, my questions (oh gawd, here they come):

1. WHAT FORGE SHALL I BUILD? ...assuming I scrap together the materials (metal scraps are guarded pretty closely as everything incurs steep freight costs getting to us).

I want the forge to provide heat for as much diversity as possible: anneal, normalize, heat treat, forge and weld. I'll be attempting everything from small folders, to fixed blades, to bolos and machetes, to garden and farm tools, etc. I suspect I'll primarily work "simple" steels (haha) such as 5160 and 52100, but can easily see me getting a lust to play with some more "exotic" stainless as well.

I'm considering putting together a propane atmospheric, 8-10" diameter, horizontal forge. It would probably be about 18" long with doors on both ends that have 3-4" peep holes. I'm looking at a couple of burners along the lines of Zoeller's and Reil's, mounted tangetially, with an electronic starter and idle circuit.

2. WOULD THIS BE ABLE TO DO ALL THE ABOVE?

3. WHAT SIZE BURNERS WOULD BE BEST?

4. HOW CAN THE HEAT BE MONITORED? ...I still have to read more threads regarding this.

5. ANYTHING ELSE???

So there you are, or should I say, here I am. Thanks for your time, Phyl
 
Welcome to the forums, Phyl. Farming in Hawaii sounds like a dream job to me (shows what I know, doesn't it). I was mostly raised on a farm in Ontario -- still miss it. Working on the farm in the summers was the best job I ever had (ignoring the financial aspect :) )

I'm not into forging yet, so I can't help with your questions, but I wanted to welcome you anyway. Have fun!
 
Phyl, Welcome to the BF and to knifemaking.If you think you are poor now.....

The forge you describe sounds good,and will do most any job that it is large enough for.Check out the tutorials at www.knifehow.com .There are several on forge building and lots of info on making all sorts of things.There is a lot of knife making info there,too.
The heat can be monitored by a thermocouple and pyrometer.If you are as handy as you seem,you can build a simple controller from Ebay parts that operates an electric gas valve to make the forge hold at a set temperature.
Good luck,post pictures,ask questions.
Stacy
 
I prefer real charcoal myself. I'll use coal as well so can't comment on the propane forge. If wood is available charcoal may be an option to consider. One advantage to coal/charcoal is you can make a fire sized to do the job at hand.

But on to what i can comment. Have you thought of an anvil (stake, RR or traditional). I assume you have hammers available but what of tongs. I personally don't care to hold 1500 F hot metal in my bare hands and gloves don't do much at that temp :).

There are some good books (some even free online) available. Your library may have some. For general blacksmithing try "The new edge of the anvil" by Jack Andrews and "A blacksmithing primer" ( forgot the fellow's name who wrote that one). Search the archives and you should be able to find more book titles. Check out astragal press (they have a website) or powells.com if you're willing to buy books.
 
Welcome to the BF Phyl. A horizontal propane will do what you need. If you venture into Damascus than consider a vertical in the future.

Best to you and yours,

Jim
 
Check out Don Fogg's site (just Google him). The burner design he has for powering salt pots is very good and can be pieced together with pocket change using common plumbing supplies. It uses a blower, which I would recommend versus venturi. I have three of these powering salt pots and have found they work equally well on propane or natural gas.
In constructing a forge, I would try to stay away from ceramic fiber. There are two reasons.
First, CF has basically the same fiber length and strength as asbestos and is listed by the epa as a 'probable human carcinogen.' You blow a flame on the stuff and some of it is going in the air.
Second, when you start getting into delicate pattern welding you'll be able to turn down the gas and let your part heated in a gentler atmosphere because of all the cast material's thermal mass. Very helpful. It also saves on fuel.
You don't need to control your forge with electronics. You'd have a heck of a time finding a thermocouple and process controller that goes over 2000F. (and welding is higher than that), and it's really not needed. It is quite easy to judge temperature by sight. You'll see. You will need that kind of control for a salt pot or heat treating oven, though (see Don's site). I wouldn't recommend trying to use the forge for heat treating. Forges generally heat a relatively small area and you want an even application of heat for heat treating.
Finally, it's improtant to realize that if you plan to be moving metal, you'll eventually need a press and/or power hammer. Without power equipment you 'll be forging material that's basically already to size. You can rule out damascus or heavy stock for all practical purposes. You can build the required equipment as you need it, though (I have). Just realize that's what you're in for. To me, it's worth it.
Best of luck!
 
Hi Phyl,

If you have any trouble locating burner parts, have a look on our website...we carry a Venturi burner kit as well as a Forced Air burner kit. The venturi burner we stock is good to about 350 cubic inches of forge volume while the Forced Air burner kit is good up to about 3300 cubic inches of volume....depends on the blower you add to it. Also, something that might be particularly important to you since you live on the Island, we can ship USPS Flat Rate to save money in shipping costs.

If I can help out in any way with questions about building a forge, shoot me an email!

:)

-Darren
 
Hey Darren,
Haven't met you yet, but discovered your site the other day and stuck a bookmark on it. Got some neat stuff.
 
JCaswell said:
Hey Darren,
Haven't met you yet, but discovered your site the other day and stuck a bookmark on it. Got some neat stuff.
Click to expand...

Hi Joe, Good to make your acquaintance! :) I enjoyed checking out your website...and am envious of your 44-ton hydraulic iron worker...I need one of those in my shop! :D

-Darren
 
That thing is really cool! I lucked into it poking around a local machinist shop. I was gawking at the small footprint when the guy walks up and tells me he wants $700. As you know, these babies aint cheap so I didn't even haggle. If this one somehow vanished, I'd probably pay $2,500 for another. Very useful!
 
THANKS everyone for the welcome and suggestions. It's taken me a while to get back to this thread as I've been so busy reading so many of the other ones! Such as CHANT's milling thread. Wow what a whopper!

CHANT, I've been enjoying your contributions to this forum. You sure have started knifemaking with a bang. Beautiful talented creations, including your shop! Yep, farming in the tropics is a trip!

STACY, I've been appreciating your www.knifehow.com site. Thanks for all the great info. I started looking into the pyrometer contoller gas valve idea, although costs may keep it on the back burner for a while.

SON_OF_BLUEGRASS (my favorite music (much to my stepdaughter's chagrin)), you're right-on about the tool questions. I basically have to get everything, and not much of its out here. Freight for backsmithing stuff is gonna "kill" me, assuming I can find an anvil, post-vise, (etc) I can afford. Tongs and hammers I can probably swing. Thanks for the book tips. I've been borrowing everything I can from the library re knifemaking and blacksmithing.

JIM, Thanks for the kind welcome. I still don't get the verticle forge idea, but understand a lot of folks like it. It just seems counter-intuitive (re ergonomics) to me. I'd love to think some day I'd get into layered steel welding/forging. I couldn't heat it up horizontally?

JOE, I checked out your website, WOW, what a shop! Thanks for all the tips. I had hoped to initially use the same furnace for forging, heat treating and welding but I guess that's not realistic (at least, it seems, not for HT). I'd love to layer weld steel someday, but those gargo pneumatic metal pounders seem rather ominously (physically and economically). Ya, I'm getting a sense of the magnitude of my "little" dream of knifemaking! Ha, I had just been thinking about trying to roundup and put together a few handtools, a multi-use gas-forge, anvil, vise, grinder and polisher. Now I'm up to needing: a concrete slab floored, tropical-rain-proofed roofed and walled, ventilated, wired and plumbed shop, three furnaces (forge, weld and HT), salt pots, quenching vats (oil, water and salt), computer heat controllers, acid etching, verticle and horizontal band saws, pneumatic air hammers and presses, a milling machine, various belt sanders and grinders, anvils, vices, etc, etc, etc.

I guess trying to pound steel with my tractor front-end loader wouldn't work. Not that I haven't done a little bending and straighten of stuff with it. Geesh, maybe buying a few $2,000-3,000 custom knives would be cheaper! I guess where I really need to start is getting a "buzzbox" (wire and/or stick) welder so I can start putting some of this stuff together.

DARREN: I've enjoyed your website. I'm eagerly awaiting more of it to be completed (how soon is "coming soon"?) so I can better see what those burners look like.

Thanks again everyone. wish me luck! --Phyl

PS Is there a way to spell check when writing a post prior to submitting it?
 
Hi Phyl,

If you look at the pictures of the completed burners, that is what the kits build. "Coming Soon" on the site is pretty open ended...with juggling so many other things, the site gets updated slowly sometimes... :)

Here's a free spell checker that you can use with Internet Explorer. I've been using it for a few years and find it works pretty well:

http://www.iespell.com/

:)

-Darren
 
You seem to have gotten the idea making knives is going to be expensive. It doesn't have to be. I work in a fair weather forge (read outside). the weather does limit some the amount of time I spend forging. I so far have done most of my "grinding" with files and sand paper (the better you are at hammering the less work here) and using rasps and files and a coping saw to shape hardwood handles. My vice is a cheap clamp-to-a-workbench type. Initally I used a hand drill for pin holes. So far my biggest expense was my anvil (bought a peddinghaus) but a stake anvil will work as a start. All the anvil need is a reletively flat surface and able to withstand the heat of the metal and the hammer blows. Before iron work progressed far enough smiths used large rocks.

I use one forge for everything and if you stick with simple steels you can as well.

a grand should be enough to get you outfitted well enough to start. If you're good at scrounging perhaps just a few hundred.

Check out
http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/hosting/
the pics that start with ron are what I've done for perhaps around a grand. The last few have come together well enough I'm planning to try selling a few to pay for my "hobby".

BTW most of you basic hand toold for forging can be made once you get a hammer and tongs to start.
 
Something else that just hit me. I don't think anyone has mentioned ABANA (blacksmithing group, they have a website). Have you checked for local chapters of that or another blacksmithing group. If there is one close that is real world hands on experience for the cost of dues and a wealth of knowledge.
 
Daren, I checked your burner page again. The only photo I see is the forced air one. (Thanks for the idea of a browser speller. I use Firefox, not Explorer, so will see if I can find one for it.)

Ron, I get what you're talking about. Keep it simple. I'll do the best I can. For instance, right now I just use a hand-held belt sander turned upside down on my bench. Outside shop won't really work here in the tropics due to inordinate rains. I've got Wayne Goddard's book, $50 Knife Shop on order from Amazon. Have checked out ABANA. There's noone here. Just had a water heater die a couple of weeks ago. Think I'll see if I can use that for my propane furnace body. The anvil will just have to come by-n-by someday. In the mean time I'll pound on whatever heavy junk of metal I can find. What would you say my first hammer should be?
 
son_of_bluegrass said:
"A blacksmithing primer" ( forgot the fellow's name who wrote that one).
Click to expand...

If I'm not mistaken that one is by Randy McDaniel. If you can't find it, let me know. Randy is a member of my guild and I believe the farm museum we meet at sells his book.

Also, just so that you don't get scared off by the magnitude of the investment required, I want to throw in my $.02 on equipment. It's entirely possible to make fantastic knives with only a charcoal/gas/coal forge, a pair of tongs, a hammer, something to call an anvil, a few files, a vise, some old oil and a little patience (Google for a guy by the name of Tai Goo if you don't believe me). Don't believe the hype on "needing" a press, power hammer, $1000 grinder, etc. Our ancestors had none of these things and managed to do just fine. You can learn to judge your heat by color and critical temp with a magnet, etc. Will you screw some stuff up along the way? Sure you will, but that's part of the learning process. In my opinion, screw ups are more valuable than knives. You may give a knife away, or sell it, etc. but the lessons learned from your mistakes are yours forever and will only make your future work better.

Now, all that being said, I just built a 2x72 grinder, will be buying a kiln and a gas forge soon (just ONE forge is never enough! :D), and I've got a new shop building in the works for my addictions. Blacksmithing and knifemaking are as big or small as you want them to be. Start small, see if you enjoy it as much as you think you will, then let it grow to whatever size is comfortable for you. Either way, you won't be dissapointed in this approach.

Welcome to the addiction! :)

-d
 
If I was to have just one hammer (currently up to about a dozen), I would go with a ball pien in the 1.5 lb range. With good hammer control, that will do anything you need done. I use mostly a cross or straight pien in the 1.5 lb range but those don't have quite the versitality of a ball pien. I have used a claw hammer in a pinch.
 
DEKER, Thanks for the encourgement, and the lead to check out Tai Goo. Abolutely amazing!

RON, I'll see what I can round up for hammers.
 
Farmer Phyl said:
Daren, I checked your burner page again. The only photo I see is the forced air one.
Click to expand...


...Thanks for pointing that out! ...Seems FireFox is a little more strict in its interpretation of html than IE...I had a \ where I was supposed to have a /, and IE showed everything ok...got it fixed now...if you look you'll have to clear your cache first...

:)

-Darren
 
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