Nessmuk double bit belt axe revisited.

R

Ragnar

Joined
Jan 23, 2000
Messages
95
Hi, Ragnar of Ragweed Forge here. As an old time fan of Nessmuk, I was quite interested the earlier thread on the double bitted belt axe. It's what prompted me to have the "Fort Megs Nessmuk" made up. I've sent a few to forum members and would really like to know what you guys think of them, good, bad or indifferent. I'm working on another that is a little closer to the axe pictured in the book, to be called the "Classic Nessmuk". I've attached a proposed image. It's just an image, the axe doesn't exist yet. Any comments?
I've also been talking with a rep from Snow & Nealley about adding one to their line. He seems interested, but nothing is sure at this point. Does anyone have any suggestions about the ideal size and weight, handle length, etc. ?
These are fun little axes!
Ragnar
www.ragweedforge.com

"A knifeless man is a lifeless man."
-old Nordic proverb

Nessmuk-Classic.jpg
 
Put me down for one or two, if the cost is about what the Fort Megs is it will probably be 2.........
 
I'm glad to hear you like it.
The cost should be the same as the Ft Meigs.
I'm also considering doing it in an upscale
version with 6150 alloy and differentially
hardened edges. I'm guessing that will be $10
or $20 more. I'm going to see about getting
some of the other Allan 'hawks done up like this
also. Anybody have a preference as to which
ones? I was thinking about the Viking Belt
axe, The Hunter's belt axe, the Woodland, and
of course the Ft Meigs.
Regards,
R
 
Let me preface this by saying that I am a fan of Ragnar, his site and his knives, but guys, we have to limit discussion here to non-commercial matters...So any discussion of price, options and availability are to be taken to email.

Okay?

Now, back to your regular programming. ;)
 
Those edges look very thick, at what angle are they sharpened, and hot thick is the bit behind the edge. Can we get a top down shot to check out the profile?

As for steels, wear resistance is of little use on a woodcraft axe. Stick to a steel that you can get very hard (57 RC) without it being brittle and you are fine.

-Cliff
 
Cliff,
The angle at the edge will pretty much be whatever I grind it to. I chose the Allan Hunter's Belt Axe as basis because it's about the right size, has a thinner blade then the others in this size, and I think it looks neat when doubled. Remember the axe does not exist yet. I can ask Pete (Allan) to thin down the blade further, but I don't think it should be necessary. I've attached an image of the Hunter's Belt Axe looking up the handle. I prefer to grind on the slack part of the belt because it gives a natural curve to the bevel that penetrates well, yet has some strength to the edge. (When put on a knife, this is called the Moran edge, or apple-seed edge.) I can of course use the contact wheel to make a straight knife bevel, but it would be fragile.
To get close to a Rockwell 58 I'd have to go with 6150 and edge harden them. I'm wondering if that isn't a bit hard. Has anybody actually done Rockwell testing on axes known to give good service? I don't always trust the advertising copy. I don't have a tester myself, but using the "dull file" test, most old time axes I checked (including the "professional grade" felling axe I had way back in forestry school) seem a bit softer. Or maybe I'm doing my knives harder than
I think. Any other thoughts on this?
Regards,
R

ClassicNessmukEdge.jpg
 
Ragnar :

I've attached an image of the Hunter's Belt Axe looking up the handle.
Click to expand...

Thanks, that is just a lovely grind, it should perform quite well.

To get close to a Rockwell 58 I'd have to go with 6150 and edge harden them. I'm wondering if that isn't a bit hard.
Click to expand...

Most quality axes, can be filed with a quality sharp file, but not easily. An older file will skate right off them. I have not done any RC tests myself, but modern axes do aim for ~57 RC. Essentially you get them as hard as you can without leaving the edge that brittle that is chips readily.

On a double bitted axe it would be very nice to go 57-58 on one edge, and say 48-50 on the other. You could grind the harder edge down to 10-15 degrees per side (depending on wood and skill), and the other at 20-25 (25+ being bone and ironwood class wood).

I would appreciate an email when you get these made up.

-Cliff
 
Cliff,

I'm still at the IF and when stage, but I expect it will happen. I'll go with the heat treatable
material. That's about what I find. A sharp file
will bite, but a dull file will skate. Most of my throwing axes are much softer, but the 420 still seems to hold a reasonable edge. I've been using one around the farm for trimming, etc. and I've been favorably surprised.
Regarding the Snow & Nealley project, it seems they had a prototype double bit belt axe a few years ago that never made it into production. The head was about 6 1/2" by 3 1/2". I don't have the
head weight yet. How do you think this size would
work? For comparison, the Ft Meigs is 5 1/2 by
2 1/8, and the Classic will be about 7 by 3 1/2.

Regards,
R
 
The bit width influences raw weight so there are design limits you want to work within there. Jimbo has commented on his ideal hatchet weight so you might want to check out his opinions on the subject. The other consideration is raw penetration. The more narrow the profile the greater the depth of cut. You really can't go that wide on a light hatchet as you won't get the penetration you want. I would simply use the Wildlife hatchet from GB as a benchmark. You should come out at least at this level of performance. The specs you noted look to cover a wide range of ability, from the small GB pack axe to the Wildlife hatchet for example.

-Cliff
 
Hi Ragnar!

You have a very pretty design - but nobody is going to be throwing an axe made for field use.
IMHO the one axe/hatchet that's missing from any lineup these days is the very light cruiser double axe. If you started with the "Nesmuk" double bladed design that you have and thinned the bevels somewhat and extended the blade length to match a 19" handle then you'd really have something. Old double bladed hatchet heads made for this length of handle have been going on ebay for $100 so someone sees the logic in them...
Neolyth sent some pics of a hatchet he made from a Norlund head ground down and fitted with a long handle. Pics are on this page:
Neolyth
Just scroll past my ramblings to the real stuff.
It might be tough to make the complete hatchet about 1lb in total weight with the 19" handle - but it's an ideal weight.
A hatchet that's set up for two handed use when necessary is a vastly better chopper than a single handed hatchet - and far safer. A light hatchet though is a wonderful cutting tool as well as a chopper.
Gransfors pretty well has the market when it comes to hatchets - given the weights of their mini, Wildlife for single handed use and the sfa for two handed use. The sfa though at 2lb 2oz is a little heavy for a "carry anywhere tool". The Neolyth axe should be some performer - and two blades should make it a terrific outdoor hatchet.
 
Jimbo that ground down hatchet looks very nice. I What kind of time frame are we talking about here and what was used to do the grinding? Have you seen anything close to that profile NIB? I think the GB products while strong, can be complemented. For example a much thinned out Wildlife Hatchet would be much better for a lot of things such as limbing, sapling work, and on hard woods in general. When I get some time I am going to grind out the small Wetterling I have.

-Cliff
 
Neolyth is in the middle of a new grinding project and will email me the story and pics to put up soon.
From my experience - it's a LOT of hours of work. You have to unclamp the head and dunk in water to prevent overheating, clamp, grind.... Slow work if you want to preserve the temper - even with an angle grinder!
To the best of my knowledge - no-one has ever made a light axe/ long hatchet like that. There are long very thin bladed hatchets for woodwork - but there's no dished face behind the bevel so efficiency is lost with binding on wood chopping.
Fit any single handed hatchet with a longer handle and you get far more efficiency for a lot of chopping -it's far easier on the muscles! I don't see handle size as being a large issue compared to weight. The sfa is a great axe/hatchet - but 2lb 2oz is too much to have on your belt - so it's not really a survival tool.
I really think that the Nessmuk double blade with thin long blades and a 19" handle could come in at a pound and be a real survival tool.
 
I think the axe heads are being overbuilt just the same as anything. Felling axes around here used to for example be far more ground out than the GB products which are about these best there are right now, outside of the custom ones from Tuatahi.

I would like to see some very thin, very hollow ground small hatchets for out door use as well. This isn't a great choice on its own for cutting down wood to burn, but is easy enough to make short work of any poles or the like. Combined with a small folding saw for the under cut, it would also easily fell 4-8" wood, depending on type, which is easily enough for burning.

On the grinding, I think for serious work, especially if you are repeating it, you want to anneal the heads, grind and then harden. This might be a problem with non-integral heads, so some checking in the shop talk forum would be a good idea. This obviously means you have to rehandle them, so its best for older heads you pick up.

There is a maker that forges such steel that lives quite close to me, I think I am going to see if he can handle the heat treating parts while would make the grinding much easier. What I do now is grind outside and just pour water over the blade pretty much constantly. A 4 1/2 grinder is decent for a small hatchet, but is outmatched by a full size axe, I am going to pick up a larger one soon.

-Cliff
 
For sure the big grinders are the way to go - but they're much harder to use in my experience - you'll need all of those chopping muscles to hold the thing steady!
Re-tempering has occurred to me too. I don't think people could accuse us of being superficial in learning about axes....
 
Great idea, Ragnar. May I throw in one suggestion as well? I suspect I may be seconding some of the others here.

The prototype axe head design looks nice, but if you're going to try and save some weight, might I suggest losing the upper 1/4 curve of the blade. Make the axe head straighter across at the top, more 'level' on top and lose that top flare that gives the head an equidistant 'battle axe' look. If this is to be a 'user' instead of a 'looker' I'd suggest shooting for an axe head shaped more like back to back Hudson Bay axes, or a slimmer, cut-down double-bit cruising axe, there's a reason those two don't have top flares. I've never found much use chopping with that upper part of the blade, it doesn't really hit much wood. The sweet spot(s) on my axehead are lower down the face. You'll lose several ounces of cool-looking, but not-very-useful metal this way.

Create the axe with a noticeable difference in the forge/grind angle of one side vs. the other. I grew up using cut-down double-bladed cruising axes, one thinner side shaving sharp, one blunter side to hack away at roots. Woe to me if I used the wrong side for the wrong job, my Grandpa always noticed if I screwed that up. I also notice your prototype might use a round eye and I'd assume a round 'hawk style handle. I'd rethink that, if I were designing here. I'd think that a thinner metal head will be easier if you don't use a rounded eye. You might want to consider hammer handles as you begin work on the axe head. It might be easier to just make your head fit 'stock' long hickory handles for ball peen hammers/Engineer hammers etc...than find a new handlemaker.

Despite all these nit-picky suggestions, I really like the idea. Keep up the good work.
 
Yes, the big grinder would only be used for hogging metal off the primary grind creating the hollow. This is something the 4.5 isn't capable of doing at a decent speed on a large axe. You can spend an hour grinding on not really notice any difference. There is just so much metal that needs to be removed. You would step down to the 4.5 for finishing and then to a dremal and/or files.

-Cliff
 
Yet another quick suggestion. Since a double bladed axe won't normally have a spot for a poll to pound in tent pegs, you might want to build up a small but hardened flat poll on the side of the axe, not unlike some Japanese hammers that have a side-poll just to start nails in tight spots between studs, etc...a good use for some of that metal we want you to pare off everywhere else!
 
Hey! I had to buy my Nessmuk from Ragnar. Well I haven't used the Nessmuk yet. Since I plan to use a double bit hatchet as elk/moose processing tool I would suggest one edge thin with pronounced ears to allow for skinning and ulu type work. The other edge to be thicker for chopping bones, ligaments, and wood (to make a meat pole).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top