New Design, or Production Version

Joined
May 13, 1999
Messages
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I was talking to a well established maker this morning about custom maker collaborations. He expressed some frustration that the production companies are more interested in making production versions of existing designs than in working with the maker to come up with a completely original design.

Any thoughts?

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AKTI Member #A000832

"That which does not kill me just postpones the inevitable."
 
The reason for this is because there`s a demand for custom collaborations. The day collaborations become unprofitable will be the day you see a decline in them. From what one reads in this and other forums, people want these collaborations to continue.

I think companies like Spyderco have struck a nice balance between original design and collaborative efforts. I see companies like Buck getting into this with a collaboration with Strider. Companies will do what the consumer demands. (If they`re smart.)

If custom makers feel that this trend is cutting into their business, they can choose not to collaborate with manufacturers, or, tool up and factory-produce their designs themselves. I think this is Chris Reeves strategy, but I`m only guessing. Reeves seems to want to maintain control over the quality, quantity and price of his designs in the marketplace. I wouldn`t hold my breath waiting for a CRK/Spyderco effort as long as the demand for the Sebenza is strong.

Just my .02.
 
This has two sides to it:

We all want to own all of the custom blades we see - but cant afford to. So having collaboration like that allows us to buy designs that otherwise would remain only on our wish list.

On the other hand - we would all like to see talented masters get the chance to work on new designs under the wings and financial support of the big names.

My opinion: there are so many knives I would like to see made available - both price wise and from a waiting list stand point - that I prefer the masters take their most popular models and let the big manufacturers make commercial version of them - like the Emerson - BM project, Spyderco - Wagner to name just a few.


but hey - this is just me..
 
Brian,

Let me make sure I understood the maker's complaint.

It was not that the Production Companies are doing too many collaborations but that they wanted to produce existing designs instead of new designs. Using Chris Reeve as an example: The production companies want to produce Sebenzas instead of working with Chris on a new design.

From a production company's standpoint that makes perfect sense. If a company is going to invest time and money licensing a Custom Maker's design they will naturely want to license a proven design that is already popular over an unproven design that may not do well.

Would you prefer to invest $100,000.00 or more of your money on an unproven design or a proven design? No matter how good the Custom Maker is not all of his designs will be widely popular.

P.S. I suspect that Sal would probably be able to verify that licensing and gearing up production on a knife costs much more than $100,000.00.

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AKTI Member No. A000370
 
Steve -

No question that collaborations are great!

It's really more as Blilous read it - If a maker is doing a collaboration, should the production knife which results be an interpretation of an existing design, or should they try to come up with something new?

WRT Reeve - I can easily see where Sal's quality control could produce something very close in execution to the original. For less than half the price. With a HOLE! I ain't holding my breath.
 
I think SDouglas hit it on the head. The custom makers are constantly creating with new designs and materials and have the flexibility to do so. If they do it well, a certain design (or designs) become famous or their "signature" series. Those who can afford them will seek these out, order and buy them. Many can't afford or justify what may be charged by a custom maker...

The manufacturer steps in and sees the possibility/opportunity of bring the custom maker's "proven" design to wider public, in a more affordable price range, and can be relatively sure of a return for the production gear up.

Sal/Spyderco has done it. CRK&T has done with with Hammond, then Kit Carson and soon with the Crawford designs.

If done right, I guess the maker, the manufacturer and the ELU all stand to gain.

sing

AKTI #A000356
 
And let' s not forget the Lightfoot model!
smile.gif
 
Nakano,

Who's doing a Lightfoot collaboration... folder or fixed blade? I would love to get hold of a Lightfoot design!
smile.gif


sing

AKTI #A000356
 
MT is supposed to be coming out with a LCC style folder. I am not sure if it is an auto or not. Hope this helps.

-Sam.
 
So you're saying that if:

Ernest Emerson
Bob Terzuola
Kit Carson
Bob Lum
Dave Broadwell
Darrel Ralph
Allen Elishewitz
Bill Moran
Frank Centofante
Gil Hibben
Chris Reeve
Pat Crawford

were to offer an original design in a production model, then it wouldn't sell? If Chris Reeve were to say "OK, but it won't be a Sebenza copy"? Or if Allen Elishewitz were to say he's tired of the Strykers and Specters, and wants to do something different?

First off, the "name" thing only carries the knife in the enthusiast community. I'd be willing to bet that with this segment of the market, we'd be standing in line for these names whether it was a new or old design. In fact, there would be a level of anticipation just to see the new design.

As far as the general public goes, they don't know these names, and don't know their previous models from Adam. They will buy the knife based upon it's design alone, and I think that every one of the names above has the track record to be entrusted to produce an original design that would be appealing and functional.

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AKTI Member #A000832

"That which does not kill me just postpones the inevitable."
 
Brian,

You may be right, and they may sell just by "name" alone. But I will be honest that half the names of that list don't interest me. The names on the other half have produced some designs I like and some others, well... just not my cup of tea. So, just because a "name" designs it doesn't necessarily make it an sure success nor ensure a popular design in the long run.

If you we look at Spyderco, You can see two or three (or maybe more) designs done in house that are probably consistent sellers such as the Delica and Endura. In contrast, some of the "collaborations" have proven less popular.

sing

AKTI #A000356

[This message has been edited by sing (edited 01-28-2000).]
 
Interesting thread. I'd like to know more about what the custom makers think of the collaboration synthesis.

I cannot speak for other companies, but when Bob "T" and I began our first collaboration (1988) it was more of a "hey, that could be a fun project". Wayne Goddard also looked at it the same way.

We have learned that the custom maker's name carries little weight outside of the collector market. It is the design that must carry the knife. We can do a good job of building a quality piece, but if the design does not attract the buyer, even advertising will not make it happen.

We always looked at the collaborations as;

1. An interesting project.
2. An opportunity for the maker to get a chance at offering one of his/her designs to the "General market".
3. A greater variety of design available to the ELU.
4. The possibility of success for both if a design is successful.

We've done about 20 collaborations to date with a few yet to bring to market. We actually overcommited in terms of our size and capability, but we're giving a "good shot".

Some are more successful than others. Only time can tell if the demand continues. If it's a "collector market" only that is buying a model, then the demand wears off quickly as the "collector market" is saturated.

In the end, most models will retire. Very few models can claim such longevity as the "Buck 110". 2 to 5 years would be an average life of a design.

Any custom makers out there have any thoughts they would like to share on the subject?

sal
 
Sal, I think you are right. For me, as a casual collector, the materials and design of the knife are much more important than a custom maker's name being attached. If I don't like the style or looks, I'm not going to buy it no matter who designed it. For example, I love the Lum and like the Starmate, but I'll never buy a Khalsa [sorry
smile.gif
] because it just doesn't do anything for me. I'd still like to see a Chris Reeve collaboration, though...
biggrin.gif
 
Knave, you would be interested in a CR collaboration primarily because of his proven and popular "integral lock" and his utilitarian drop point, right? If Spyderco were to collaborate with CR on a new design, perhaps without an integral lock, you would be interested be in seeing it but not necessarily committed/inclined to buying it, no?

sing

AKTI #A000356

 
The "name" I look for is Spyderco. What I'm looking for from a collaborator is features. An interesting lock, handle, texture, blade shape, sheath... I depend on Sal to put in the quality fabrication and materials, the collaborators give a variety to the designs. I'm still waiting for a sleak design without a hole or serrations--maybe an automatic.
 
Sal
I agree with you on the collaboration points
I do feel that in todays knife industry there are a few points that are now being overlooked that need to be addressed

The colaborations IHMO that are popular and have staying power are the ones that are not just the knife makers vision. I feel the knife has to pass certain standards. It has to have function and appeal to the mass market as well as the collector folks.

This crossover hit(collector and mass market) can be achieved when the gamble is taken out of the mix.
Use of your prior knife sales experience along with the makers style to create the ultimate collaboration is a win win situation.
Just because a collector does not care for the makers prior style a good maker with the mass market in mind can design to please both the collector and mass market. I have to admit that the knifemakers name does help get the fire started. Good promotion and pre release decisions are the other part of the ticket. The development of the target purpose of the knife in question is IMHO the most important thing of all.

Please think of a hit record. Not every record is a hit.. Sometimes the timing is off or several other factors enter into the mix here.
I do feel that a knives odds of sucess can be made higher. There is a formula.


BTW I love your new sypdie card VERY GOOD mass market appeal.

Just my .02 cents

Brian Thanks for the faith in my work . Its an honor to be on your LIST...
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Web Site At www.infinet.com/~browzer/bldesmth.html
New Web at www.darrelralph.com



[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 02-07-2000).]
 
Collaborations are a good way to introduce variety and selectivity into a manufacturers product line. All manufacturers are makers and they tend to lean toward a certain pattern or style that pervades all of their designs. All of Spyderco's basic knives have the same general shape and profile. There are some variations but, still, a Spyderco is absolutely recognizable for what it is.

Collaborating with other makers can help to drive a company out of the "rut" that can develop after awhile. The designs by Terzuola, Zowada, Herbst, Lum and Goddard add a freshness and zest to the line that makes people take notice. Without "new blood" every now and then things can stagnate. Sure, people still buy the popular brands but there is no booming demand.

Witness Buck Knives. For years they were loafing along on designs and patterns that were decades old. They were so established that when something new was tried, most folks were shocked and aghast at what was coming out of their plant. Sales were declining because the buyers were going after the new and exciting stuff. There weren't enough traditionalists left to sustain the company. Buck knew that they had to do something and they did it. Joining with makers like Kit Carson and Strider,while working up some new designs in-house as well as discontinuing the old, outdated and poor sellers has helped Buck come back from the brink of being bought out by a major offshore company. Collaboration and innovation were the solutions in that case.

On the other hand, collaborating with a well known maker isn't a guarantee of success. The Outdoor Edge version of Darrel Ralph's Krait, the Impulse, is a good example. It's a great knife, true to the original design, well executed and built very well, not to mention a bargain as well. The only problem is, they dont sell, at least not in my market. Don't know why. Maybe its the fact that they are made in Taiwan but I don't think so. Columbia river is doing quite well and almost all of their stuff is made in Taiwan. The point is, a well known makers collaboration is no guarantee of success. Heck, even Chris Reeves deal with Al Mar wasn't all that much of a barn burner. I could go on but you get the picture.

As for a Chris Reeve collaboration, I think that is wishful thinking. If they produced the Sebenza It would not make it out the door at half the price of the real one. That knife/lock cannot be produced and fitted at a price point much lower than Chris Reeve, especially with their quality control.

Look at Benchmade. They tried knocking off the Sebenza with the 750 series. It's a fairly well made knife but it doesn't sell, even at a heavy discount. I have had them for a long time and have only sold 1 or 2. I have sold almost 20 Sebenzas during that same time. In Fact, I use the BM as a sales aid to sell Sebenzas. They handle that one and then I show them the real one..no contest. There is a reason that the Sebenza costs as much as it does and that is workmanship. It is also the reason that it outsells the BM knock-off by almost ten to one, at least for me. Based on that, a CRK and Spyderco joint effort is not likely anytime soon.

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Dennis Wright
Wright Knife & Sporting Goods
1-800-400-1980
("Have a knife day!")
wrightknife@ixpres.com

[This message has been edited by Dennis Wright (edited 02-06-2000).]
 
Sing, the Lightfoot collaboration is also from CRK&T in a folder. There is an ad pic in a recent Blade or Knives Illustrated issue. I' ll try to locate it.

L8r,
Nakano
 
sing, you are correct. It's primarily the integral lock that I'd like to see in a Reeve/Spyderco collaboration. I would also prefer something around the size of the Umfaan. I just like small knives.

[This message has been edited by Knave (edited 02-05-2000).]
 
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