New Jersey Mammoth Ivory Ban Clarification (also NY & CA)

Critter

Critter

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Folks,

While I am sure that nobody at the recent New York Custom Knife Show broke any NJ laws, I talked to a number of you regarding the NJ ivory ban law as related to fossil mammoth ivory-handled knives being illegal to sell or trade. Numerous of you commented that you believed that mammoth tooth, as opposed to tusk, was not illegal. As much as I hate the NJ (and NY and CA) ivory bans, the law is quite clear that tooth is included. I am not sure where the concept that tooth was okay came from, but it's just not so (emphasis added):

2. As used in this act:
"Ivory" means any tooth or tusk composed of ivory from any animal, including, but not limited to, an elephant, hippopotamus, mammoth, narwhal, walrus, or whale, or any piece thereof, whether raw ivory or worked ivory, or made into, or part of, an ivory product.

Sooner or later, there's going to be a raid on one of the NJ knife and/or gun shows (and NY and CA as well). I really, really don't want our friends to get hurt by this insanity. Beyond pointing you to a good lawyer, there's not much more that I can do to help you if your knives are seized and/or you are arrested. The value of the knives will be the cheap part of the losses you would experience.

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wait...

NJ makes it illegal to own ivory from an animal that has been extinct for a couple of thousand years?
 
glocke12 said:
wait...

NJ makes it illegal to own ivory from an animal that has been extinct for a couple of thousand years?
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Not exactly. As of now, at least, possession is not illegal and you can pass it to your heirs, but you cannot buy, sell, trade or engage in any sort of commercial activity with it (in NJ, NY and CA as of July 1, 2016).
 
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Critter said:
Not exactly. As of now, at least, possession is not illegal and you can pass it to your heirs, but you cannot buy, sell, trade or engage in any sort of commercial activity with it.
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thats crazy...thats only in NJ right?

I have a Northwoods pocket knife with mammoth ivory scales...nice knife that ive thought of parting with but i guess now i'll keep.
 
glocke12 said:
wait...

NJ makes it illegal to own ivory from an animal that has been extinct for a couple of thousand years?
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Just for accuracy's sake, it is generally accepted that mammoths have been extinct for approximately 10,000 years.

Save_The_Mammoths_T_Shirt_600w.png
 
I do my best to save the Mammoths.

Send all fossil Mammoth parts to; Don Hanson :cool:
 
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#mammothlivesmatter The useless slaughter of these animals is.....never mind.

I agree to send all pieces to Don, each one will turn into a museum piece.

Seriously though, thanks for bringing that to light, the thought of a raid isn't that far fetched, just ask the guitar manufacturer in CA!
 
I agree these laws are draconian. My take is that the confusion over "Teeth" came from reading the language "any teeth or tusk made from Ivory". My understanding is that mammoth teeth are not made from Ivory, but I could be wrong. For example, modern elk have regular enamel teeth plus they have set of teeth or "ivories" in the back that are actual Ivory. People often save these from an elk harvest and use for jewelry or other crafts. I had a set that I thought about I laying into a knife handle, which would now be illegal in NJ.

Someone please chime in and advise if mammoth teeth are "made from Ivory" or not. Could be all that remains from these teeth are the minerals that replaced the bio material of the original teeth (enamel, calcium, denton).
 
You can try any of these arguments you want to in front of a judge, good luck with that. I would not bet my freedom and wallet on them. A good NJ lawyer will cost you about $350-500/hour at our friendly rates, and you can probably expect to spend $5,000-10,000 MINIMUM. All I can do is offer up our best advice, backed by our experience and some of the best criminal law lawyers around. Everyone here is a big boy and girl, ultimately the decision is yours.
 
Critter said:
Not exactly. As of now, at least, possession is not illegal and you can pass it to your heirs, but you cannot buy, sell, trade or engage in any sort of commercial activity with it (in NJ, NY and CA as of July 1, 2016).
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Just a couple of points for clarity. First, California law regarding this issue has always had wording incorporated into the statute making it illegal for anyone to "sell, offer for sale, possess with intent to sell" the listed items. There's a pretty thin line between possessing and possessing with intent to sell, which ought to be well understood.

Also with respect to California law, the ivory definition does not speak of teeth made of ivory, so, again for clarity, it's quoted here...["Ivory" means a tooth or tusk from a species of elephant, hippopotamus, mammoth, mastodon.............]and, of course, other numerous species.
 
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mwschilling said:
I agree these laws are draconian. My take is that the confusion over "Teeth" came from reading the language "any teeth or tusk made from Ivory". My understanding is that mammoth teeth are not made from Ivory, but I could be wrong. For example, modern elk have regular enamel teeth plus they have set of teeth or "ivories" in the back that are actual Ivory. People often save these from an elk harvest and use for jewelry or other crafts. I had a set that I thought about I laying into a knife handle, which would now be illegal in NJ.

Someone please chime in and advise if mammoth teeth are "made from Ivory" or not. Could be all that remains from these teeth are the minerals that replaced the bio material of the original teeth (enamel, calcium, denton).
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A Elephant Tusk is a tooth that has turned forward then they have the Molar grinding teeth. 6-7 sets they have through their life If i remember correctly,

I'm all for using Fossilized Mastodon mammoth Ivories but personally won't use Modern Ivories of any kind on my knives.

I suggest you use that stock for your own knife only
Also direct this question to a higher up in Fish & Game for clarification of the legal terminology of what's a Ivory?
 
Critter said:
Not exactly. As of now, at least, possession is not illegal and you can pass it to your heirs, but you cannot buy, sell, trade or engage in any sort of commercial activity with it (in NJ, NY and CA as of July 1, 2016).
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Am I allowed to buy it out of state and keep it in my NJ home?
 
there is a long treatise in Wikipedia related to Mammoths. Near the end is this bit of comment/

"Local dealers estimate that there are 10 million mammoths still frozen in Siberia, and conservationists have suggested that this could help save the living species of elephants from extinction. Elephants are hunted by poachers for their ivory, but if this could instead be supplied by the already extinct mammoths, the demand could instead be met by these."

Perhaps the legislators should read some of the information before making decisions based on hysteria rather than on facts. But then again "My mind's made up. Don't confuse me with facts."

Certainly going to affect knife shows and dealers and collectors in California particularly. I just finished the new book on knife laws in the US and how anyone would be able to keep up with legality based upon 50 different states rules is beyond me. While Canada does have some strict rules related to "auto" knives, at least it is a Federal law so applies the same across the country.
 
155440 said:
Am I allowed to buy it out of state and keep it in my NJ home?
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It is illegal.

From the statute: "it shall be unlawful for any person to import, sell, offer for sale, purchase, barter, or possess with intent to sell"
 
Murray White said:
there is a long treatise in Wikipedia related to Mammoths. Near the end is this bit of comment/

"Local dealers estimate that there are 10 million mammoths still frozen in Siberia, and conservationists have suggested that this could help save the living species of elephants from extinction. Elephants are hunted by poachers for their ivory, but if this could instead be supplied by the already extinct mammoths, the demand could instead be met by these."
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Fossil ivory is certainly fine for some uses, not so much for others, including repairs and restorations, but the facts are that there is virtually no poached ivory coming into this country, we are a GREEN ivory country, it's all recycled from ivory that's been in this country for no less than 25 years. The problem is China, not the U.S., and punishing tens of millions of U.S. ivory owners won't do anything about the poaching problem, which all rational people certainly abhor.

Perhaps the legislators should read some of the information before making decisions based on hysteria rather than on facts. But then again "My mind's made up. Don't confuse me with facts."
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Sometimes they do listen, which is why we have only 3 states banning mammoth ivory and 4 states banning ivory to date. We and our partners were able to defeat ivory/mammoth ivory bans in 14 states this year to date.

Certainly going to affect knife shows and dealers and collectors in California particularly. I just finished the new book on knife laws in the US and how anyone would be able to keep up with legality based upon 50 different states rules is beyond me. While Canada does have some strict rules related to "auto" knives, at least it is a Federal law so applies the same across the country.
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Must be why Canadian knifemakers keep trying to talk me into helping them with their laws? :-) With no preemption, there are plenty of places that federally legal knives in Canada are illegal locally. Moreover, even at the federal level, it seems Canadian customs rules differently in various areas of the country as to what's legal to import or not. Each of our countries has its own barriers.

Having said all that, depending on what knives you own or carry or wish to make or sell, it can, indeed, be confusing here in the U.S., I can't deny that. That's what Evan's book is for, and why I wrote the forward to the book, and why we have the LegalBlade App so that you can have the laws at your fingertips. (The app is being updated and will include the ivory bans in an updated version later next year) Forewarned is forearmed.

Knife Rights is dedicated to freeing up knife owners and knifemakers from as much of this confusion as possible, getting rid of all knife bans in the states and passing preemption laws to ensure these freedoms are enjoyed by everyone in the state. Nine states, almost 20%, have knife law preemption, after only 6 years of effort. We have passed 19 bill in 14 states to date, as well as defeating 5 anti-knife bills, plus those ivory ban bills.
 
Hi Doug, I am only aware of three states banning ivory, New York, New Jersey and California, please name the forth. Thanks
 
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