New Knife Fan-

[Luis G.]

Hi there everyone.
After collecting a few swords I decided to start heading to knives: in particular non assisted folders.
While I can understand vast price differences in swords (hand made vs machined, folded vs folded/lamination vs monosteel non lamination etc etc).

So far for my first knife I decided to go cheap so I can have some kind of reference point for my future purchases. I did some quick research and bought a knife. The knife is the CRKT Lake 111 2 Zytel blade, it cost $25 shipped (cheapest I could find at the time, and I didn't feel like waiting through an auction). The extra locking mechanism is what made the difference between the Lake 111 and the Drifter.

Now I want to figure out how to spot a good knife from a bad one. So once I receive the CRKT Lake 111 Zytel I can make a better purchase by taking your points and seeing them live on the CRKT Lake 111.
First of what exactly makes a folder of $30 different to a folder of say double it's price, or triple?
1. What exactly am I looking for in a folder that I should look for? Here are some topics:
Safety: grips, balance, weight, locking mechanisms etc
Fittings: What materials are good for comfort and safety. What locking mechanisms work great?
Steel/edge retention: I know knifes are not like swords and will require sharpening after much use, however is there a big difference between 1 steel and another? Or perhaps one brand to another due to perhaps heat treatment or styles of blade? Or does it come down to moot point?

Thanks.

 

[thegeek574]

I am going to be using the Kershaw junkyard dog II composite as my reference knife.

1. the grip is excellent. it is countoured to a hand and feels great. the locking liner is overbuilt, and will not fail. weight is more, but it is worth it.
2. G-10 is awesome. it will not rip up your pants, but it will feel nice and grippy. from all i hear, skateboard tape will make it even better.
3. every steel is good in it's own right. the one on the JYD II composite is CPM-D2. this will hold a working edge forever, but is a pain in the butt to sharpen. other steels: s30v: not particularly easy to sparpen, but still has great edge retention. look up the steel before you buy.
Hope that helps

 

[brets-ftw]

honestly i say get some lower end knives in different materials (buck, sanrenmu, navy, bee and byrd are a good start here) try out the different materials from G-10, to zytel, FRN etc and different low end steels (8cr13mov, 420hc, 440b) and then work your way up youll find a lot of references to these materials and steels and youll have an idea of what its like and if your still interested in getting higher check around to see lots of threads on this forum for steel tiers etc

 

[Cynic2701]

Now I want to figure out how to spot a good knife from a bad one. So once I receive the CRKT Lake 111 Zytel I can make a better purchase by taking your points and seeing them live on the CRKT Lake 111.
First of what exactly makes a folder of $30 different to a folder of say double it's price, or triple?
1. What exactly am I looking for in a folder that I should look for? Here are some topics:
Safety: grips, balance, weight, locking mechanisms etc
Fittings: What materials are good for comfort and safety. What locking mechanisms work great?
Steel/edge retention: I know knifes are not like swords and will require sharpening after much use, however is there a big difference between 1 steel and another? Or perhaps one brand to another due to perhaps heat treatment or styles of blade? Or does it come down to moot point?

Thanks.

Hi Luis G. Welcome to Bladeforums!

To answer your questions:

In my opinion Ergonomics are extremely important. It might be a good idea to go to a brick and mortar store with a decent selection of knives and just handle a few to get an idea of what feels good in your hand. Regardless of what anybody else tells you, if it doesn't feel good in your hands then I'd suggest searching for another knife. For example, I have extreme hitch-hiker's thumb--Spyderco's Sage series, though wonderfully ergonomic for the great majority of people, are actually painful for me to use for any longer than 5 or so minutes.

Balance is less important. Unless you are doing knife tricks, or are changing your grip on the knife constantly, the balance of the knife should be of little concern.

Weight may or may not be a concern. Some people want to go as light as possible (arbitrary 4oz's anyone?) and other people simply don't care. Personally I prefer knives in the 3-5oz range.

Locking mechanisms are a big can of worms that you might not want to open. Suffice it to say, some are better at resisting forces that are attempting to close the knife than others. Personally, I am more concerned with my fingers being out of the way when closing the knife--I'm generally not a fan of back-locks, liner, or framelocks (I love Sebenza's, and Umnumzaans, and several Spyderco back-locks). However, any knife that has a well made lock won't disappoint you. Benchmade's Axis-lock is widely considered a great lock, as well as Spyderco's compression lock, and Cold Steels Triad lock.

The fittings or handle materials are also preference. G-10 and Micarta offer great traction (providing they are textured well) while also resisting temperature change in the hand. Metal handled knives, like Titanium or Aluminum, can be damn cold in subzero temperatures, or damn hot in 100+ degree temperatures. I like both.

Steels and heat treatments are also a big can of worms to open up. In general once you get "premium" level steels, the differences between them in real world use are hard to tell. A better thing to think about is how, and how often, are you going to sharpen your knives? I generally like VG-10, S30V, 154CM, and ZDP-189 in a folding knife--with high chromium contents, these steels have fairly good corrosion resistance, while also retaining a decent amount of edge retention and wear resistance. Although D2 is a great steel, I've found that for my uses it starts to get surface rust after a month or so, and I end up having to baby it a little more than other steels with better corrosion resistance. CRK's heat treatment of the S30V used on Sebenza's, Mnandi's, and Umnumzaan's is often a sore subject. Most of the time, you want your steels to have HRC's of 59-62. What kind of environment do you live in, and what environments will you be using your knife in?

 

[Luis G.]

Thank you thegeek574, brets-ftw, Cynic2701 for the comments.

I will give G10 a try, what is the difference between Zytel and G10 apart from brand?

Aye I will have to give Kershaw a try.

@Cynic

Thanks specially for the well thought out post. Ergonomics is most definitely important. Aye I figured balance would not matter much when the weight is around 4-6 oz.
Weight is definitely not an issue, my laptop alone weighs around 8.7lbs, and the adapter alone is 2 lbs~. I carry nearly 15 lbs of weight any given day. Hence I have a comfortable backpack (knife will be going in there as a EDC utility knife, and pretty darn strong back if I do say so myself.

Okay I will ignore locking mechanisms, seems they are not good implementations.

I've handled cheap $10~ folders and always close them with both hands regardless of locking mechanism.

I see. I will give Micarta a try, actually now that I think i have already tried G10 on a handle for a large Bowie knife. Was okay.

I see. So overall with premium steels the difference between steels/etc are almost moot point?

 

[Cynic2701]

Thank you thegeek574, brets-ftw, Cynic2701 for the comments.

I will give G10 a try, what is the difference between Zytel and G10 apart from brand?

Aye I will have to give Kershaw a try.

@Cynic

Thanks specially for the well thought out post. Ergonomics is most definitely important. Aye I figured balance would not matter much when the weight is around 4-6 oz.
Weight is definitely not an issue, my laptop alone weighs around 8.7lbs, and the adapter alone is 2 lbs~. I carry nearly 15 lbs of weight any given day. Hence I have a comfortable backpack (knife will be going in there as a EDC utility knife, and pretty darn strong back if I do say so myself.

Okay I will ignore locking mechanisms, seems they are not good implementations.

I've handled cheap $10~ folders and always close them with both hands regardless of locking mechanism.

I see. I will give Micarta a try, actually now that I think i have already tried G10 on a handle for a large Bowie knife. Was okay.

I see. So overall with premium steels the difference between steels/etc are almost moot point?

I wouldn't exactly ignore locking mechanisms--I'm more suggesting that you buy a few quality knives and determine what you do and don't like for yourself. To be honest, despite having cut myself pretty deeply closing Spyderco back-locks, I still believe them to be great locks.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any folding knife that has Micarta scales--though I'm sure that someone else will chime in soon with a list. One warning against high-traction G-10 or Micarta is that it will eat up your pockets if you carry your knives clipped.

I wouldn't say that the differences between steels are a moot point, there certainly are palpable differences between them. I'm just saying that it might take a while, especially if your sharpening skills aren't top notch, to fully realize the potential of each steel: for the average knife-user (who generally knows next to nothing about steels/sharpening) there probably wouldn't be much of a noticeable difference outside of corrosion resistance.

I will attempt to answer your question: what exactly makes a folder of $30 different to a folder of say double it's price, or triple?

For the most part, in comparison to cheaper knives, the knives that hover around the $20-40 are reasonably well constructed (though I can think of many counter-examples) and generally are made in China with lower quality materials and less expensive steels.

The best examples in this range are probably the Kershaw Skyline, and Chill; and Spyderco's Tenacious and Persistence.

Once the $50-80 price range is hit, "premium" knife steels are usually standard (like VG-10 or 154CM), and many handle scales are made of FRN, Valox, or Zytel. Though they appear like cheap plastics to many, these high-quality plastics are actually very strong and more than adequate for all reasonable uses.

Examples: Benchmade Griptilian, Mini-Griptilian, and 530. (Probably several Kershaws, though I am not very familiar with their line-up). Spyderco Delica, Endura, Manix 2.

Knives in the $100-150 almost always have "premium" steels, and sometimes "super premium" steels, and usually have handle scales made of G-10 or some sort of metal. They are high-quality knives, but the increase in the specs (like higher steel grades, handle materials, or design) start becoming far less commensurate with the increase in cost. These knives will generally outperform most lower cost knives, and will do so while "looking" nicer. It is a subject of sore debate on whether or not knives that cost more than this tier are actually worth the cost.

Examples: Most Benchmades, Most higher-end Spydercos, Most higher-end Kershaws. In my opinion the Spyderco Paramilitary 2 might be the best bargain at this price range.

So-Lo has a great youtube video on this subject.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHozhKvx4Kg

And, on that subject, I would highly recommend that you watch several knife reviews. It will really help jump-start your knowledge.

 

[Cynic2701]

I'd also suggest doing a little research on blade grinds. I'm very partial to Full Flat Grinds for my folding knives. The difference in slicing ability between a Saber grind and a Full Flat grind needs to be felt (cut a lot of thick cardboard) in order to be believed.

 

[Luis G.]

So far I am liking chisel, flat, and convex grind (something tells me I won't find many if any knives with this type of grind). More then likely however I will end up with hollow-grind.
I've been looking at Nutnfancy/Cutlerylover videos a lot lately mostly with Kershaws/KCRT and a few other brands.

Im kind of partial to Dupont materials (Zytel) as they have generally been durable. I dislike high friction grips, but still I will see if I can find a cheap G10 scaled knife (if it's like the fixed knife I think used G10 then I probably won't like it- sounds like it is, that one was kinda rough for a handle) so I can compare to the Zytel on the Lake 111 I am receiving.

My sharpening skills I'd say are average to above average, I think I can get a good sharpened edge on knives, usually hair splitting sharp).

I guess for my next purchase(s) I will just get a few knives and try out difference styles/grips/materials all at once.
Last and probably most important question:
Where is a good place to say pick up knives for a good price? (brick and mortar are a no-no as they like to charge near MSRP)?

 

[Noctis3880]

I would suggest a Cold Steel American Lawman or Spyderco Paramilitary 2 for a next purchase, or perhaps a Benchmade 710.

Cost-wise, the difference is in the steel and the handle materials(G10 VS Titanium).

Looking at Ankerson's steel ranking as a reference:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=793481

There isn't a noticeable gap in performance of steels from one category to the next unless you actually test how many cuts you can make. Though if two steels are 2 or more categories apart, you'll start to notice it. However, one thing you'll notice right away would be how easy or hard it is to sharpen the blade. My S90V Para2 in particular has been very stubborn about taking a nice mirror polish.

As far as high-end knives go, it takes an awful lot of time before you can appreciate what goes into it, as well as the tight tolerances and fit and finish. As a rule of thumb, I would just keep in mind the diminishing returns in terms of performance once you start going over the $250 mark for a single knife.

 

[Planterz]

I will give G10 a try, what is the difference between Zytel and G10 apart from brand?

Zytel is a Dupont trademark for a wide line of their nylon plastics. There's literally dozens of different Zytels. Some reinforced, some not. Reinforcing can be done with fiberglass, minerals, or even kevlar. When talking about knife (handles), it's always fiberglass reinforced nylon (FRN). Basically, it's a molded plastic that contains glass fibers. Very tough, relatively stiff/strong, and inexpensive.

G10 is a true fiberglass, like the body of a Corvette. Sheets of woven glass fabric layered with epoxy. G10 is very similar to the fiberglass used to make circuit boards. Lightweight, very stiff, and extremely strong and tough. Short of getting stupid with it with a blowtorch and a hacksaw, it's practically indestructible, at least when used for knife handles. It's more expensive than FRN, so it's seen on more higher end knives.

Carbon fiber is similar to G10 in that it's sheets of woven fibers with epoxy, except it's carbon fibers rather than glass.

Micarta is similar to G10, but instead of fiberglass sheets, micarta is made with natural materials, such as linen, canvas, and even denim and paper. You can literally make micarta it your garage with epoxy and old jeans or whatever. The epoxy and the laminate nature of it makes it strong and durable, but it's not as strong as G10 or CF. The advantage is that even with the epoxy, it retains some of the properties of the base material, which gives it good grip, even when wet with water, sweat, or blood. Micarta is a favored material for outdoor/camping knives because of this.

Hope this clears things up for you.

 

[Luis G.]

Thanks so much for the advice, Noctis3880 and Planterz.

I stay away from Cold Steel, they don't really have anything that appeals to me. However Benchmade does, and I will have to check out their different models. I notice they are a bit on the premium side of knives.

Planterz that about sums it up, but which is the more comfortable material Zytel or G10? Some mentioned that G10 was pretty rough, and I think I have already tried a fixed knife using G10 which was a bit rough for handle. I haven't tried Zytel yet, or at least I am pretty sure I haven't but I will be trying it out once my Lake 111 comes in.

 

[Planterz]

Planterz that about sums it up, but which is the more comfortable material Zytel or G10? Some mentioned that G10 was pretty rough, and I think I have already tried a fixed knife using G10 which was a bit rough for handle. I haven't tried Zytel yet, or at least I am pretty sure I haven't but I will be trying it out once my Lake 111 comes in.

That really depends on the specific brand and knife the G10 is used on. G10 can be polished and look as shiny as anything. Most of the time it's textured for grippiness. Spyderco, for example, has a pretty fine texture that gives you grip but it's not aggressive, so it doesn't wear out your pockets. Some knives, like the Kershaw Offset, has very aggressive texturing, and can chew up your pockets in short time. It really does vary knife-by-knife.

FRN, even very aggressively textured, won't be as hard on your pocket as similarly textured G10. Even though it's reinforced by fiberglass, being mostly plastic, FRN "feels" like plastic.

That said, FRN vs G10 really is a choice of preference. G10 is obviously the higher quality, stronger, more durable material, but that doesn't necessarily make it "better". I carry a FRN Spyderco with me every day, a Tasman Salt. If it were made in a G10 version, I probably wouldn't carry it, even though G10 is certainly a "better" material. I carry it inside my waistband, so the rounded edges and softness of the plastic make it comfortable to carry this way. The same knife with G10 handles probably wouldn't be good to carry this way at all. But if it were a choice between G10 and FRN for a knife to carry in my pocket, I would prefer G10 or CF pretty much 10 times out of 10, although again, that depends on what the specific knife/knives are available in.

If I were you, I'd go to a knife shop and hold knives in various handle materials, just so you can get a feel for them. You can look at pictures on the internet and talk to people on forums, but there's no substitute for first-person experience.