new L.A. knife laws??

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Jul 4, 2013
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So, I am a Los Angeles, CA resident, and I was out at a 7-11 speaking to a LAPD officer when he noticed the knife on my belt, a suib-3" ESEE Izula II, which to my knowledge is completely legal for my state, county and city. He said to me that the laws had just been changed and that I woiuld have "trouble carrying any full-sheath knife." If any one could help me clear this up, I would greatly appreciate it.

TIA,
/joshuab
 
Cops don't always know the local knife laws and sometimes get them wrong. Stories like yours are not uncommon on this forum (cop says something is illegal, says new law was passed, and they are wrong).

No disrespect intended to law enforcement, but they are a bad source of information regarding what is or is not legal. If a cop ever tells you that your knife violates some law, ask them what the specific statute is, write it down and look it up online. If they can't cite the specific statute, then they are probably wrong. Cops make the same mistake that many civilians make, they base their knowledge of knife laws on "something they heard".

And there is always the chance that he was trying to trick you into not carrying your knife anymore by trying to convince you that it is illegal. Cops are under no obligation whatsoever to give you accurate or truthful legal information.

If any new knife laws have been passed in LA, then I would think that it would have been reported on your local news. I know that down here in San Diego, whenever ANY new law gets passed, even if it's a parking law, it gets reported on the local news. If any new knife laws have been passed in LA I would expect some internet research to uncover that information.

You can also call the District Attorney's office to inquire, it is a PUBLIC office after all. Everyone there is being paid by your tax dollars, they work for you. Of course, that's no guarantee that you will get an answer. But like I always say, when in doubt, consult a local criminal defense attorney.
 
The officer is correct. Knife laws in CA have been revised. The famous 12020 no longer exists and has been replaced. If there has been a recent revision with laws relating to weapons, there MUST be a memo sent out to through each department. That is probably why the officer was aware of it.

http://zknives.com/knives/articles/law/caknifelaws.shtml

Penal Codes

PC 20200
- Defines open carry as A knife carried in a sheath that is worn openly suspended from the waist of the wearer is not concealed within the meaning of Section 16140, 16340, 17350, or 21310. The handle shouldn't be covered by clothing.

Part 6/Title 3/Division 5
- Defines legal and illegal pocket knives. Full text of the penal code 17235. The most interesting part of the penal code is the following definition of the switchblade knives:

As used in this part, "switchblade knife" means a knife having the appearance of a pocketknife and includes a spring-blade knife, snap-blade knife, gravity knife, or any other similar type knife, the blade or blades of which are two or more inches in length and which can be released automatically by a flick of a button, pressure on the handle, flip of the wrist or other mechanical device, or is released by the weight of the blade or by any type of mechanism whatsoever.

Basically, this section outlaws switchblades, or automatic knives, plus ballisongs, or butterfly knives. Also whatever else can be opened with the flick of the wrist. However, there are lots of legitimate knives that also fall under that category. Next section clarifies that part:

"Switchblade knife" does not include a knife that opens with one hand utilizing thumb pressure applied solely to the blade of the knife or a thumb stud attached to the blade, provided that the knife has a detent or other mechanism that provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade, or that biases the blade back toward its closed position.

The paragraph above was added to the PC 17235 (to the original 653K) thanks to SB 274, or Karnette amendment(California state Senator Betty Karnette of the 27th district introduced it in 2002). This is an important clause that makes legal regular folding knives which can be opened with one hand. The knife must have some sort of thumbstud to move the blade into the open position and has to have some sort of mechanism to keep it in the closed position and provide some sort of resistance to overcome when opening it. For the record, a thumbstud doesn't necessarily has to be affixed to the side(s) of the blade, but can be on the top like on Kershaw Shallots.

Kershaw Speed Safe AO - The Karnette amendment is also what makes Kershaw Speed Safe assisted opening knives perfectly legal in California. Speed Safe satisfies 3 conditions instead of minimum two, not to be a switchblade, i.e. it has a thumbstud on the blade, which the knife operator has to push to open the knife, second Kershaw AOs have a detent, and just those two would be enough to comply switchblade law, but the torsion bar of the Speed Safe mechanism also forces the blade to stay in closed position, i.e. provides bias towards locked position.

Blade Length Limit - As you can see there is no length limit ever mentioned in this code. So, normally unless there is a specific law restricting the blade length in any given local area, you can carry folding knives of pretty much any length, not outlawed in 16100-17360 or in Part 6/Title 3/Division 5.

Part 6/Title 3/Division 5
- Deals with knife carry and prohibits several types of knives. It is way too long to cite it here completely, thus only the most relevant parts here. For The reference - full text of the penal code Part 6, Title 3.

General - Division 5 and subsequent divisions outlaw several types of knives and other weapons/devices. Violating any of the rules carries out the same punishment: is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison.. I.e. same penalty for Lipstick, Undetectable, Belt buckle knives, etc.

Division 5 of Title 3 of Part 6 prohibits and bans several different types of knives, before 2012 they were all in the same section(12020), listed by name:
Old version in section 12020, pre 2012 - (1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses ... any ballistic knife, ... any belt buckle knife, any lipstick case knife, any cane sword, any shobi-zue, any air gauge knife, any writing pen knife, ...
After 2012 each type listed above got its own article under Division 5, including 1 year prison punishment.
So, not only you can't carry, but you can't even posses any of the listed in above. Some of it makes sense, some not so much. The section 22210 bans slungshots, but slingshots are ok. Half of those things are most likely unknown to general public and probably knife enthusiastas as well. For your information, Shurikens are also included in Division 9 of the Title 3, section 22410-22490. They are not exactly knives, but still edged weapons. Ok, moving on.

PC 21310
- any person in this state who carries concealed upon the person any dirk or dagger is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison - We'll go through definitions later, but this one says no to concealed dirks and daggers. By the way as this one is, it doesn't prohibit them, just states they have to be carried openly, on the waist as we saw open carry definition. Sad part is that dirk (and dagger) definition in the law, see Dirk Or Dagger in PC 16100-17360 definitions, covers pretty much anything, because ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death applies to the screwdrives and pens just as well. And those things do get used in crimes as a stabbing weapon.

Ref - Definitions of terms in Penal Code Part 6/Title 3/Division 5

171.b
- Tells you what you can and can not carry in public buildings and meetings. For the reference - Full Text Of Penal Code 171. 171.b starts with:
(a) Any person who brings or possesses within any state or local public building or at any meeting required to be open to the public pursuant to Chapter 9 (commencing with Section 54950) of Part 1 of Division 2 of Title 5 of, or Article 9 (commencing with Section 11120) of Chapter 1 of Part 1 of Division 3 of Title 2 of, the Government Code, any of the following is guilty of a public offense punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for not more than one year, or in the state prison:
(1) Any firearm.
(2) Any deadly weapon described in Section 653k or 12020.
(3) Any knife with a blade length in excess of four inches, the blade of which is fixed or is capable of being fixed in an unguarded position by the use of one or two hands.
...
Thus no knives longer than 4" in state and public buildings. Exact definition of the state or local public meeting and open to public buildings can be found in 171.b(c). In short, those are state or local government owned or leased buildings such as courts, police stations, city halls, etc. Meetings mean wherever those officials get together to conduct regular or irregular work, e.g. city council meetings.

626.10
- As stated above defines knives school carry. Again, this one is way too big. For the reference - full text of the penal code 626.10. Subdivision a prohibits you can not bring a fixed blade knife longer than 2.5", a folding knife, ice pick, etc to the school. Subdivision b is pretty much identical, applies to universities and colleges, same restrictions, but folding knives are ok. Subdivisions c, d, e, f make exemptions. E.g. Knives for food preparation and other work places are ok. Students can bring knives if directed so by school or university employees. Subdivision a is below:

(a) Any person, except a duly appointed peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, a full-time paid peace officer of another state or the federal government who is carrying out official duties while in this state, a person summoned by any officer to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace while the person is actually engaged in assisting any officer, or a member of the military forces of this state or the United States who is engaged in the performance of his or her duties, who brings or possesses any dirk, dagger, ice pick, knife having a blade longer than 2 1/2 inches, folding knife with a blade that locks into place, a razor with an unguarded blade, a taser, or a stun gun, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 244.5, any instrument that expels a metallic projectile such as a BB or a pellet, through the force of air pressure, CO 2 pressure, or spring action, or any spot marker gun, upon the grounds of, or within, any public or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or any of grades 1 to 12, inclusive, is guilty of a public offense, punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or by imprisonment in the state prison.
 
Your Izula II is fine(PC 20200). What the officer really meant is open carry fixed blades is taboo in urban areas and draws much unwanted attention.

Oddly enough, I am not sure if we are allowed to hang fix blades off our backpack anymore now that the law is so specific. (though I would never suggest that)
 
In other words, nothing that was legal before is illegal now. And nothing that was illegal before is legal now. All that really changed is the exact wording and some numbers, but what is and is not legal is still the same as before. The original law regarding the legal and open carry of fixed-blades specified "worn openly in a sheath hanging from the waist", or words to that effect.

As far as it being a problem to openly carry a fixed-blade in urban areas, I have been doing just that down here in San Diego for about eight years now without any problems, and many cops have seen me do it. Experiences will vary.
 
You are absolutely correct killgar! Thank you for pointing that out! An excellent point; nothing that was legal before is illegal now.

The original law regarding the legal and open carry of fixed-blades specified "worn openly in a sheath hanging from the waist", or words to that effect.

The original law (PC 12020) only stated an example. It was never specific like PC 20200.

25(d) Knives carried in sheaths which are worn openly suspended from the waist of the wearer are not concealed within the meaning of this section.
 
Everything everyone has said so far is accurate, but let me lay one final matter to rest. So far we have been talking about California State law. But as for Los Angeles County (and City)? That law has not changed.

County: Chapter 13.62

City: Section 55.10

Both these regs are nearly identical, and do make it illegal to carry sheath knives openly, but only if the blade is ≥3". The ESEE Izula II has a 2.63" blade, but it was still in the sheath I take it? Unless the cop took it from you and held it next to a ruler, it might have been an honest misidentification that it was ≥3". But like these others have said, he might just be genuinely ignorant and only read the name of the statute ("Carrying knives in plain view") and taken it at face value rather than read the text in detail. Or he was simply bending the truth to try and scare you into not carrying, stemming from the psychological insecurities so common among LEOs about citizens being "armed."
 
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