New makers VS Established makers

V

viper5192

Joined
Aug 2, 2000
Messages
536
No, it's not a war! But there are a few things I would like to discuss!

First, why should the small makers have to fight to become known? I see the online purveyor generally ignoring the new, lesser known maker for a guaranteed seller. Some of the stuff the new makers are putting ut is great.

Second, some "new" makers aren't. I have met many new makers who have been practicing their art for many years, with only local sales, and not much recognition.

Third, didn't the well-established makers come from somewhere? Wow maybe they were unknowns at one time! Except for Kit Carson, he was born with a piece of steel in one hand and a file in the other ;-)

Fourth, why shouldn't new makers get their shot?

What you have here is good for new makers, but I am trying to get as many new makers on my site as I can. The exposure of the international knife community can't hurt.

Take for example, Ron Leuschen, Little Hen Knives. He was used to selling his knives locally in Canada. He put a few knives up on my site, soon after not only does he have a sale but it is from a collector in England! Wow an international sale!!

I hope I can help other new/lesser known makers also.

Come take a look! I just updated the site! Look under New Makers!

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Peace

Paul
Custom Knife Purveyor
"We support the new maker!"
Circle P Knives
 
I sure do like alot of the knives I saw on your site. Some very nice work from people I have not heard much about in the past. I will look for their knives in the future.

Keith.
 
"New" makers need to do what the "names" did in the beginning. Make some knives, spend some money on advertising, go to shows. And the big one that alot of new makers don't seem to understand-you can't charge the same prices as the guys who've been at it for years and are well known. Why would anybody pay the same for a knife from an unknown as he does to a well known maker? With the well known maker, you know you can get your money back and maybe it will appreciate. It's called paying your dues, which doesn't seem to be too popular nowadays.
You mentioned Kit(that bastid), well he's been at it for alot of years. He also did quite a bit of advertising.He went to shows, got his work out there in front of the public, and after a while, word got around that his knives were first class. It didn't happen overnight. And if you check out his website, even now you can get one of his folders(model 4) for less than some of the new makers are asking.
It also wouldn't hurt if a new maker contacted some of the magazines and offered to send a couple of knives for evaluation. You have to get your work out there in front of the public.
As to the purveyors, they are in business to make money, bottom line. Most of them only deal in established makers because they need to keep items moving, they can't afford to get stuck with work that doesn't sell. A new maker who believes in his work might offer to send some knives to a purveyor for inspection and appraisal. Also they need to give him a good discount so he doesn't have to set prices too high. Maybe they could get a purveyor who liked their work to try a few pieces on consignment.
Bit I can't stress price enough. It's always struck me as ridiculous to walk around a show and see a maker I've never heard of, selling his knives for the same prices as Bob Terzuola,Darrell Ralph, Mel Pardue,etc. I think if you ask any of these guys most will tell you they didn't become makers to get rich. There's plenty of time later to raise prices, the key is to get your knives out there and let the word get out that they are good.
To answer the first question you posted-why shouldn't they have to fight to get exposure? Do you think someone handed the well known makers the keys to the kingdom? Alot of them worked in obscurity for years, barely making ends meet, most working other jobs, till the became succesful.
As to your second question. If a maker has worked for years and is only known locally, it's often their own fault. You have to advertise. Let people see what you're making. Go to shows. Start posting on the forums. If we don't know who you are, why would we take a chance spending our money on your product?
As to your question of why shouldn't new makers get their shot, I'll ask you why should they? Nobody is owed a shot. You have to make it happen.
Your website looks good and I think it's great that you're promoting new makers. But it takes time to get a reputation, for word to get around,etc. If the work is good, if the price is right, and most important if people see it and get to know it, they will buy.
Anyway, just my .02

Dave

[This message has been edited by lifter4Him@aol.com (edited 02-24-2001).]
 
I agree with Lifter, if a new maker is turning out knives which are appropriatly finished, and of consistant quality, they should make the effort to contact purveyors and to advertise alittle. If you don't make yourself known to the dealers/purveyors, to them you will remain unknown. Also to attend as many shows as possible and when speaking about your knives , explain to people what makes your knives uniquely yours.

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Steve Filicietti
Custom Knives
AUSTRALIA
http://www.unitedbladeworx.com.au
 
I feel there are several things "new" makers need to understand if they want to become better known.

One is taking risks. So many new makers don't realize they'll only become popular when people actually handle their knives! You have to go the better shows to have the top dealers, writers, and other industry contacts see their knives. These people have to meet the maker and handle the maker's knives in order to decide if they have any merit. Ads and photos are just part of promotion. If you stay near your home town and do only home town shows, you're really putting shackles on yourself.

Another key is to strive to be a little different. It takes years to develop a recognizable style. If you make knives exactly like the "other guys", the only thing that can be in your favor is workmanship. And it better be outstanding if you want to compete with the guys who have been perfecting that style for 20 years.

Motovation and patience are also key elements. Too many folks want to make the wildest knife they can, only to find out they don't have the talent to pull it off successfully. You have to have the patience to learn. Motivation is many times linked to patience. If you don't sell a bunch of knives in your first year, it can affect your motivation. Also, if you can't handle criticism or the dissapiontments that can happen day to day, your motivation might begin to slip.

The key ingredients, however, are tenacity and integrity. Look at the top makers who have been doing this for 20 years or so. Ask them how easy it was to get where they are. Ask them how easy it is to stay where they are. Ask them about customer service and evolving skills. Ask them about the costs of knifemaking (NOT the cost of making a knife). You'll learn a lot about tenacity.

You're absolutely right when you say nobody "owes" a new knifemaker anything. A lot of times, it's the new knifemaker who owes other people a lot!
wink.gif


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Tom Anderson
Hand Crafted Knives


[This message has been edited by Tom Anderson (edited 02-24-2001).]
 
Viper,
I just visited your site the other day and saw some nice work. Looks good! One recommendation: list the maker's name and perhaps a short profile. I was trying to find out who was the maker of the "Laramie knives" on your site and couldn't see it. (btw, Blade Art, Blade Gallery and CKD all have maker profiles).

I'd also like to hear Les Robertson give some thoughts. I think he has a combination of experience and good sense that is hard to beat.

 
IMHO, the Internet and places like BF, KF, etc. are an incredible resource for new makers to gain exposure. At BladeForums alone they have the opportunity to show their work to 9000+ knife knuts.
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by richard rosvall:
IMHO, the Internet and places like BF, KF, etc. are an incredible resource for new makers to gain exposure. At BladeForums alone they have the opportunity to show their work to 9000+ knife knuts. </font>
Click to expand...

I've talked with some makers about this, and they say that they don't have time to go on the net, because they're too busy with their knives. I try to explain that time on the net should not be considered recreation time, but important, business-based advertising time. New makers can jump start their businesses quickly by frequenting the forums, and failing to do so is missing an important avenue of less expensive advertising, as well as a means of establishing contacts with more established makers and purveyors.

 
I love threads like this.

Paul, your compasion for the "new" guys is understandable. As you yourself are a "new" guy.

When I was a new guy I worked with a bunch of unknown makers. These were makers that I saw at NKCA shows, gun shows, etc.

You might recognize some of the names.

David Broadwell
Kit Carson
Pat Crawford
Jim Hammond
Jim Siska
Steve Rapp
John M Smith
Jerry Fisk and Harvey Dean (back when their blades said JS)
Doug Casteel
Rob Simonich
Jim Minnick
Mike Sakmar
Schuyler Lovestrand

So Paul, don't dispare, you need to form a bond with many of these makers support them with your time, energy, countless thousands of dollars for shows, travel, advertising, phone lines, postage, shipping, web site, etc.

Paul, just like with makers, it takes dealers about 10 years to become "overnight" sensations.

Lifter,

Knife dealers are not only interested in working with "established" makers. While it's true just like any business we have to pay the bills. Most of the dealers I know love custom knives. I did this for 8 years part-time while I was in the Army. For the most part I was making enough money to pay the bills the business generated

While I do it now as a full time custom knife Entrepreneur, my passion for custom knives has not diminished.

I am always looking for new makers to work with.

Let me throw some names out to you of makers I started working with when they were not "established". In some case people in the US didn't even know these guys names.

RJ Martin
Greg Lightfoot
Brian Tighe
Joel Chamblin
John W. Smith
Aaron Fredrick
Larry Chew
Don Polzien
Ken Onion
Alan Elishewitz
Darrel Ralph

Lifter, I suspect you have heard of most of these guys...now.

New makers in the last few years.

Geno Denning
Trace Rinaldi
Matt Lamey
Jason Jacks
John Young
Mike Snody

A lot of what a dealer does is look for potential in a maker. It's not just can they make a knife, of course they can. For me, its more than just the ability to make the knife they have on the table in front of me.

Their personality, commitment to excellence, ability to adapt, willingness to try new things and can they understand the dynamics of business.

To any maker out there, dealers/purveyors are an asset to be used. Just as a magainze is used to put advertising in. It is up to the maker to decide which dealer or dealers will give them the most amount of exposure in new markets for their money. Only the MAKER can decide that.

Here are some questions to ask a dealer.

Do you set up at shows? If so, which ones. Make sure they are not the exact shows you set up at.

If you don't set up at shows, why not?

Do you have a web site?

What type or styles of knives are you known for selling. In my case I sell more cutsom tactical knives than any other one person in the world. However, this does not mean that is the type of knife I sell.

Because of a now very large custom knife buyer base. The dealers are more diversified than ever.

This helps the customers as there is a bigger selection. It helps the dealers as we compete less and less for the same makers.

Oddly enough, the group it may have the biggest negative impact on is the "established" makers.

As the Internet allows information to be spread out more rapidly, both makers and buyers are becoming educated at a much more rapid rate.

Consequently, those "established" makers who have hit a "plateau" and are not willing to try new things or the quality of their work is slipping are slowly being pushed aside for those who will try new things and who's quality of work is ever improving.

How is the dealer viewed in the industry. It does not hurt you as a maker to work with a dealer who has the ability to get their name and/or your name or work in magazines.

Recently in American Handgunner there was an article on Jay Sadow. Larry Connelly got some ink in both Tactial Knives and Blade last year. Other dealers who sell custom knives that were mentioned, Bob Neal, Paul Farina, Rhett Stidham, Gary Levine, Dave Harvey, Gary Shaw and Paul Basch. Even I seem to get a little ink once in a while.

Perhaps the most important thing for a maker to take in to account. What is the reputation of the dealer you are considering working with, among the collectors/buyers.

Because for the most part, Publishers, Editors, Writers, Advertising Managers and other makers are not going to buy your knives.

I do agree with the statment that no one owes a new maker or a new dealer anything. When I was first starting out, I had makers tell me I was "nobody" and why should they give me knives at a discount. I didn't like what I heard, but they were right.

Point being, for makers, dealers and buyers a like. Take the person for who they are today. Not who or who they may or may not be some day.

Good quality at a fair price is always in demand.




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Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
 
Thanks Les, always very insightful. My business model is a bit different that most dealers, but am sure as I get some cash flow, will become more a standardized model.



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Peace

Paul
Custom Knife Purveyor
"We support the new maker!"
Circle P Knives
 
Hi Les,
That was why I suggested that a new maker contact a purveyor and offer to send some knives for inspection or consignment. You're not gonna buy them blind, without knowing the quality. I just meant you have to have product that is well made and sells. Getting together with a purveyor is probably one of the better ways for a new guy to advertise. If the dealer believes in him and his work, he will mention him in his ads and in conversation.
I have asked you a couple of times about certain makers work that I didn't see listed on your site. You stated that the fact that you didn't carry it pretty much summed up your opinion. And that's what I mean, they have to get it in your hands for you to evaluate it.
See you at ECCKS,
Dave
 
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