New/Old Nihonto (pics) and Possible Touchup?

Havoc550

Havoc550

Joined
Oct 9, 2011
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I was in Japan for the first half of October and visited Seki City. Part of the trip was to attend the knife show there and hang out with Kiku Matsuda. While staying in Seki, I stopped by Nosyudo and purchased an edo period Katana, two tanto and two tsuba. While I was able to bring the tsuba back, the exportation laws forced me to wait about a month for the swords. They finally arrived last week and go well with my collection.

One of the tanto is in okay to decent shape and is the only nihonto I have without shirasaya. I am not sure you would call it koshirae, but its got a usable tsuka and saya. The tsuba is just a small, lacquered wood piece and there are no spacers, hence, its loose. Anyway, I know the stories on polishing, professionals only, and all that stuff, I get it. However, this piece needs a little work. I wanna say I paid well under $1k for it and the surface has some very small imperfections that I think could be easily worked out. Point being, if I make it worse, it's not a huge deal. Are there any suggestions on a very simple, delicate way of working some of the imperfections out? I want the polish to look a little more uniform and remove the tarnish/rust on parts of the edge. I have a lot of it, but never used it, would just uchiko work for this purpose?

I am an amateur knife maker with a Travis Wuertz TW90 grinder, high end belts, lots of nice equipment. No, I will not use the grinder, the point is that I have a good pool of resources and can buy whatever I may need.


On that note, I wouldn't dream of doing this to any of my other nihonto. I specifically picked this tanto out knowing I would be handling it a lot.

Here is the tanto in question:

http://i.imgur.com/gBkrqIb.jpg

You can see the imperfections on the surface rather easily. It looks like the previous owner tried to fixed things in a very poor manner.

Here is the oldest nihonto I have, dated early 1500s. Its a wakizashi that was originally a naginata:

http://i.imgur.com/uSeRW4b.jpg

Both katana:

http://i.imgur.com/9LaLLXp.jpg

And finally, both katana, the other tanto, and on the bottom, my very first nihonto. It too was a naginata that was shortened:

http://i.imgur.com/qCptcEg.jpg
 
Nothing need be done to your wakizashi (the black handled one), it is in a good state of polish. Anything you do is likely to make you wish you hadn't. Uchiko and oil consistently applied to the area of discoloration shown will improve the appearance over time. The only issue on the edge visible in the picture is near the habaki and is unlikely to benefit from anything not mentioned above. Working that near the edge is likely to result in profuse bleeding; I polish and I get cut every time nearly, and I know what I am doing, think of how it may end up for you! PS if you insist, use a decent uchigumori stone to clean up the edge.
 
I would say that it is a koshirae. While not elaborate, it does have a tsuba, fuchi, kashira, koiguchi which may all be lacquered wood or horn. The koshirae reminds me of what is known as "Chato" or a sword used in the tea ceremony. Most of them I have seen did not have a real blade in them but were more symbolic than functional. I have seen a couple including yours with real blades, though I do not know if these with blades were actually used in the Chado ceremony. You can google "Chato Japanese Sword" and see some of these non bladed version. There is some debate as to whether these are Chato or Bukoto (Dr.s sword). See this one as it is obviously for Chado as it holds a Chashaku or tea scoop: http://www.the-kura.com/items/1120159/en1store.html

As far as cleaning up the small imperfections seen on the blade, compared to what you generally see here these look like Juto :-) Seriously, I don't think I would concern myself too much about them, they don't look bad. Of course you could use Uchiko on it for a while and see if that helps, but even uchiko can dull the polish as it is an abrasive powder. When using uchiko, one should apply only enough pressure to move the powder, no force. It is surprising how many people do not know the correct way to use uchiko. Also, try to buy real uchiko, most of those little cleaning kits only contain talcum powder in the ball.

I have used never-dull and a polishing cream called Noxon 7 (also non-abrasive) on modern swords which were put away without cleaning and developed some light rust.
Though, personally I would never use them on my Nihonto and almost hate to mention them. Consider that my disclaimer.

What you have to careful of is not softening the lines, which is very easily done. If you go ahead with your plan and try anything, be warned.

They all look nice. I especially like the naginata naoshi at the very bottom.
 
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Yes, I stand corrected. In retrospect, I probably should have used a term other than "non-abrasive". Certainly all(?) or the majority of polishing compounds use some form of abrasive substrate to remove unwanted surface oxides, scratches, etc... What I was trying to imply is that these products would not leave visible scratches(abrasions) or none I have been able to discern with the naked eye.

Thanks for the information, wondered what the ingredients were. I do wish they had listed the grit size, obviously it is very, very fine.
 
I do the finger test for grit size ;)

Even toothpaste. Salts are interesting, as they dissolve, I use baking soda in a slurry at times. Bon Ami cleansing powder milder and non-staining. Plastic scrubbies, from yellow open net to blue & green scotch brites (gray ones getting more abrasive). Bon Ami is all organic with no fumes (feldspar, limestone, ash, baking soda).

There are a few other favorites such as Auto-Sol and Simi-Chrome. If you can find an MSDS for a product, most break down the ingredients and proportion. A great many simply use aluminum oxide.

Bronze wool is softer than steel wool. I use copper Chore-Boy pads a lot as more available.

Cheers

GC
 
Thanks for all the responses and suggestions. I hope I didn't come off as some jackass out to ruin treasures from Japan, I just wanted to see what my options are.

The Noxon suggestion was a good one, I have a few bottles of that stuff still, but I never knew it had any type of acid or abrasive. That is very good to know and I will be VERY cautious if I consider that route.

I will also take a look at "Chato", it's nice to get some history about the piece. Too bad only 3 of my 6 nihonto have papers. Two of which I got in the US, I have at least an expert's write up on the one without. The katana from Japan has papers, but neither tanto does. I tried to request more info, but the language barrier is a little harsh, but I am still in contact, so we will see.

Once I get them displayed, I will take some much better pics. That was just a lets oil the new and the old all together session before taking them upstairs.

While the naginata naoshi looks good in that pic, which it is a good looking sword, has a MAJOR flaw in the bo-hi, close to the habaki. Its on the other side of the blade and painful to look at. Most of my nihonto have tiny sections where there was air trapped between the steel layers and it was exposed while polishing. They look like little ant caves and I am sure there is a name for them. Unfortunately, there was a large, spherical air pocket that was exposed and the the steal hanging over the pocket was pushed into it. Its scratched all to hell around it as well, probably from someone trying to fix it. Yes, there are several trails as well across the beveled spine, so that is the ugly side of the sword for sure.

Hopefully I can return to Japan next year, only this time I will be on the hunt for something in koshirae and a naginata. They did have two naginata there, but they were just too small for my taste and the prices were a bit high for that visit.
 
My only thought or concern now with the Noxon 7 is that is does contain acid. That has me wondering if an antique sword had nugui used on it, the acid in the N7 may affect that, altering the color of the steel. As I stated previously, I have used it on modern swords, but never antiques.

Shame about the flaws on the NN. The flaw you are referring to on it are called Fukure.

Do you know what the papers say on the one you have ?

I have sent you a pm.
 
Never ever ever ever (and im emphasing this for everyone else who might be stumbling on this post on google and such, not aimed at you specificaly Havoc) eveeeeer try to restore or touch up a Nihonto youself unless you are a togi from Japan, you will innevitably ruin the blade no matter how cautious you are, it takes decade to master the art of nihonto polishing.

Your tanto look like a shortened naginata, btw, did you check the nakago?
 
Remzy, your post is redolent of something, not sure what to call it....but there are a number of professional and talented amateur polishers who know what they are doing, and you do them a disservice by spouting your statement regurgitated by the many quasi informed like you. Steel, even Japanese steel, is still steel, and knows not the national origin of the polisher, only whether the result is competent or not. If you don't know what you are doing in trying to restore Nihonto, DON'T DO IT! SEEK COMPETENT HELP! Not all of which are Japanese. Also, anything acidic will continue to act on the steel unless neutralized. If you don't know how to do that, don't put anything acidic on the blade, especially Nihonto. Many well meaning owners have ruined polishes by wrong actions.
 
Aluminum foil asnd light oil works for fine work but takes a lot of elbow grease.

Noxon will gray steel if left but shiny is the next step.. Hard wood, antler and plastics for picking at pits.

It's ll a matter of degrees and what one is trying to accomplish.

The OP indicated he was not too concerned with damaging this particular blade.

Cheers

GC
 
Steve Wolf Shimanek said:
Remzy, your post is redolent of something, not sure what to call it....but there are a number of professional and talented amateur polishers who know what they are doing, and you do them a disservice by spouting your statement regurgitated by the many quasi informed like you.
Click to expand...

Pretty bold of you to call someone else quasi informed and then pretend that only the steel matter in the same post... being a nihonto polisher is as much about polishing than it is about knowing the school of the smith, the era it was made in, the way it was cared for and how to keep the shape as close as possible to the original. When I said a Togi from Japan, i was of course implying that the person ought to get trained in Japan for 6 to 9 years..., just about anyone from anywhere could become one, but knowing how to put a shine on a piece of steel does not make you a togi.

For excemple, a good non japanese Togishi would be Robert Benson from Hawaii.

So you know, ive been studying and collecting nihonto for nearly a decade, I dont claim to know everything, far from it, but one thing I know is that only a proprelly trained togi will ever get his hand on my blade for restoration purpose...
 
While I don't wish to get into the discussion between you two, I feel compelled to address this statement.

There are a number of amateur polishers who know what they are doing
Click to expand...

Steve, This is a very scary statement, simply incorrect, and very bad advice for those who do not know better IMHO. Amateurs may think they know what they are doing, but good intentions have ruined many Japanese swords.

Polishers licensed by the Japanese Government must undergo a ten year apprenticeship. Surely you don't mean to imply that a self taught amateur, can self learn and become the same quality of polisher as one who completes the 10 year apprenticeship.

Even one who has studied under another amateur or maybe even a year or two under a licensed polisher can not possibly posses the knowledge or experience regarding Nihonto in order to properly identify and formulate the best options for polishing with regard to preservation. A good polisher must know Nihonto thoroughly, all the schools, manufacturing variables of different time periods, differences in the steels of various areas, smith nuances, etc., just to name a few.

Even within the realm of polishers in Japan(where the very best do reside), there are polishers who excel in polishing swords from one school over another. So, your choice in a polisher may be determined by the sword you wish to have polished even among a large contingent of trained professional polishers.

The only two licensed polishers in the US are Benson and Hayashi, both were licensed in the 70's (not positive on Hayashi's date, but I have known him for 25 years). These guys have 40+ years experience after licensing. The only other polisher worth mentioning is Moses Becerra, and I am not 100% sure whether or not he was licensed in Japan, though I do know he did study in Japan and has been polishing for around 30 years. Mr. Becerra was trained under Kentaro Yoshikawa, a third generation Honami polisher and sword appraiser who was the Japanese Imperial household polisher.

There is a big difference.
 
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