New serrated edges-more than just hype?

[weety]

Do the prolonged edge retention of serrated edges outweigh the added time in sharpening (with triangular files etc.) vs. a normal plain edge? Do proprietary serrated edges really make a difference i.e Spyderco or is that marketing hype? I know there may be no consensus opinion but I wanted to get some “real world perspectives”.


Many Thanks!!!

 

[M Wadel]

no the serrations are very aggressive, for some cutting this makes a hard job very easy, cutting some strings etc. personally i like plainedgeknives because im not cutting much stuff that requires the serrations, + its hard to sharpen the serrations when they get dull.

 

[weety]

no the serrations are very aggressive, for some cutting this makes a hard job very easy, cutting some strings etc. personally i like plainedgeknives because im not cutting much stuff that requires the serrations, + its hard to sharpen the serrations when they get dull.

Thanks for the reply! SO....I have never sharpened a serrated knife other that the kitchen variety. It seems that doing so for a tactical knife has some major possible drawbacks.

So I guess that begs the question(s):
1) how difficult is it sharpen/maintain the serrated edge;
2) I assume the frequency is of sharpening is less vs. a plain edge-correct?;
3) how easy is it to mess up the serration by 'bad sharpening' technique;
4) is a half-combo serration a good comprimise for those situations where having some serration would be desired?

Thanks!!

 

[Esav Benyamin]

I've moved away from partial serrations. Combination edges don't leave enough plain or enough serrated area for the specific uses I'd need them for.

It's all or nothing now, with a few fully serrated blades for specialized use, and I don't tend to carry them regularly. For daily carry, I much prefer plain edge, well-maintained.

But to sharpen serrated edges, just use the Sharpmaker, and use it the same way you would for a plain edge. This will wear down the serration's points eventually, but the worn points will still be extremely sharp. In fact, as they approach scallops rather than serrations (sawteeth), they will tend to bind less in coarse material.

 

[gordonk]

Agreed - I've been carrying a CE Delica 4 now for a month or so in an attempt to try and get used to CE's. I've never really been a fan of them for regular use, though they do come in handy the odd time. I'm also one that prefers PE for most things. In all fairness, though, a larger blade in CE is not all that bad - i.e. Endura 3/4 there is enough of each to be quite useful. I used my E3/CE when I was doing some reno work on some rental properties and along with a Byrd Crow and Ka-Bar/Dozier, that E3 worked very well. My first Endura 4 was actually a CE one , though I will be acquiring both PE and SE ones very shortly (they are actually in - jsut got to find enough time to pick them up). I've used my CE Delica 4 enough that the points are starting to round out ever so slightly, and it's not catching as much, which I found to be an issue with a 3 inch CE - not that a CE can't be used - just have to pay a little more attention on the cut to utilize one edge or the other. The Sharpmaker makes it pretty easy to touch up those serrations. I actually went out and bought an extra brown rod to carry in my Maxpedition for those field touchups

- gord

 

[darkestthicket]

Serrations are usually a good thing to have around, almost every knife i carry has partial serrations, i tend to disagree with some members over its efficiency. some tasks it makes much easier!

 

[Big Mike]

Plain blade is better all around, except on rope and other fibrous material. A good quality steel, properly heat-treated, with a plain edge is the knife for me; plus much easier to sharpen. I use many knives, and like any tool, having the right knife for the task at hand is key. I do have several serrated blades (all folders) that I use when working with rope. I prefer a full serrated blade to a partially serrated blade. Though I suppose that if I had to have only one, do everything knife and rope was a concern, a partially serrated would do. I find that a good plain edged blade, made of high quality steel like D2, will do it all.

Tip: If you want the benefits of a serrated blade on a plain edge, leave the edge a little coarse. The little “teeth” left behind will work like serrations. All or part of the blade, your choice.

 

[weety]

But to sharpen serrated edges, just use the Sharpmaker, and use it the same way you would for a plain edge. This will wear down the serration's points eventually, but the worn points will still be extremely sharp. In fact, as they approach scallops rather than serrations (sawteeth), they will tend to bind less in coarse material.

Has anyone tried triangular stone + painstakingly doing every serration-or are people just wearing down the edges (i.e. sharpening a SE like a PE)


So....OK so trying to form a conclusion....

It seems that few people like the combo PE/SE-unless it is long enough to do jobs efficiently -I'm thinking a 6'+ inch blade. SO then to solution is PE for everyday with a fully serrated as back up. No real compromises.

One question that remains is there a real performance difference between the patterns manufacturers’ use for their serrations? i.e. is Syderco's alternating edge better than Cold Steel's or is it more of an overall gestalt of the knife?

Many Thanks for the input!!

 

[Esav Benyamin]

I'm sure there are many people who sharpen the serrations separately, except for the Cold Steel serrations, which would be tedious to do. It isn't necessary, though.

I don't think it matters exactly which serrations you get. I like scallops or reverse serrations, but I don't go looking for them, since I don't use many serrated blades now anyway.

Incidently, for anyone looking to carry a ceramic rod with them for touch-ups, you don't need a whole Spyderco rod, just get a Gatco Tri-Seps.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Do the prolonged edge retention of serrated edges outweigh the added time in sharpening (with triangular files etc.) vs. a normal plain edge? Do proprietary serrated edges really make a difference i.e Spyderco or is that marketing hype?

Yes the edge retention of serrations for slicing is far improved over plain edges, even coarse ones, this is many to one so much so it will dominate over steel types easily. The sharpening time isn't significantly increased unless you damage the serrations. Yes it makes a large difference what type of serrations are used. Some serrations are much more fluid and some are much more aggressive so which one is optimal depends on if you are cutting soft or hard materials.

-Cliff

 

[frank k]

Plain edges are generally more versatile but certain things such as bread, nylon rope/ webbing, some plastics and rubber are easier to slice with a serrated edge.


When I compared the edge holding of some similar Spyderco knives in plain and serrated edges on cardboard, I got about a 54% increase in edge holding for a serrated 93 mm Rescue compared to a plain edged version. The increase for a serrated H1 Atlantic Salt compared a plain edged Atlantic Salt was an impressive 421%! This large increase is apparently due to the added work hardening of serrated H1 edges.


Details are here:


http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=372653


After my little test, when I sharpened the 4 knives, I was expecting to spend more time sharpening the serrated edges, but instead I spent as much if not more time sharpening the plain edges. The plain edges were fairly dull and needed a full sharpening while the serrated edges didn’t need much more than a heavy touch up/ light resharpening.


With serrated edges, there always seems to be a bit of sharp edge left hiding in the inside curves of the serrations, so you can continue to cut with them even after most of the edge is dull (which gives rise to the myth that serrated edges never need sharpening).




- Frank

 

[DGG]

If you into sharpening and bevel angles and such then you can't dismiss serrated knives. The have a variety of bevel angles from very acute angles to the angle of the outside part of the serrations.

I find serrated edges very easy to sharpen on a Sharpmaker which has triangular shaped rods whose corners easily ride in and out of the serrations and do an excellect job of sharpening.

Lastly, you get a greater effective edge length. A 3.5 inch serrated had about the same cutting edge length as a 4.5 inch plain edge.

For slice cutting they are great. This type of cutting is what I do 90% of the time. For push cutting a plain edge excells.

I cheat. I sharpen both sides of my serrated blades. This makes them track true when doing fine cutting and makes the edge even more acute for easier cutting.

 

[weety]

I cheat. I sharpen both sides of my serrated blades. This makes them track true when doing fine cutting and makes the edge even more acute for easier cutting.

how do you sharpen both sides? With the triangular stone on the flat side? If so.... are you not making it a double serrated blade (getting rid of the flat side)? How does this hold up long term? I would think that doing a double sided sharpening would thin out parts of the blade making it more susceptible to chipping/breaking the 'teeth' of the serration...I dunno. Please tell me more about your technique!

Thanks!!!

 

[Cliff Stamp]

how do you sharpen both sides?

Generally it is recommended to shrpen the back side flat, which is how you would do it with a plain edge chisel grind. However if you do this with a serration patten you will grind off the tips. It would be like recommending to saw the blade into a piece of concrete a half a dozen times. This would obviously be seen as nonsensical, but lapping the back flat does the same thing - just not as drastic. Just take the corner of the rods and apply a light bevel to the back to cut off the burr meaning raise it above zero just a degree or two.

I would think that doing a double sided sharpening would thin out parts of the blade making it more susceptible to chipping/breaking the 'teeth' of the serration.

It will actually make it more obtuse. If you have a chisel grind at 20 degrees (common serration angle) and you add a 5 degree back bevel then the included angle is raised to 25 degrees. If you keep the back bevel very low and very light (just a few passes on the rods) the change in included angle will be insignificant in terms of effect on overall strength/durability. The main reason for back bevels on chisel ground blades is to improve control for wood working as they allow the blade to easier rotate in the woods.

-Cliff

 

[kel_aa]

The overall edge at some parts of the serration may be higher. However, I don't think that'll necessarily mean it'll be easier to use at all points in time. I just got two brand-new S30V Natives back from Spyderco, with the included angle something in the range of 18-23 (unable to verify furthur than that right now). I cut some cardboard with it mainly to test the lock, but it was much more difficult than a Military with 30 degree total edge. Now if you cut a lot of cardboard and want to cut some rope or strapping afterward that might be different, but honestly it was more effort with the serrated Native, edge retention non-withstanding.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Are those similar primary grinds?

-Cliff

 

[weety]

Generally it is recommended to shrpen the back side flat, which is how you would do it with a plain edge chisel grind. However if you do this with a serration patten you will grind off the tips.

What are people's experiences with using the Lansky® "DogBone" specific to Spyderco or Cold Steel's serration pattern? Would that prevent one from having to grind off the tips?

 

[J85909266]

I've been using fully serrated knvies at work for over a year now, and I would never consider a PE for that kind of work. They simply cut much longer, and the edge is much tougher and less prone to deformation and chipping. I'm talking about Spyderedge, though, and there can be a monumental difference in different company's SE performance. I'd also like to mention that sharpening a spyderedge on a Sharpmaker is no harder and takes no longer than sharpening a PE.

 

[kel_aa]

Are those similar primary grinds?

They are not. You know the specs of the Military, the Native I has 3 mm stock with a hollow 1/2 up the side. The edge thickness is similar I believe.

It wasn't a binding issue, more like a tearing issue. It was also the ability to start the cut. It may not tear the whole way, but on the far side of the cardboard I find a lot of cardboard that is being torn and dragged along. Sometimes the serrations also wedges a piece of cardboard right into the cut, making it very difficult to restart. Now this was bending and cutting cardboard perpendicular to the ground, like you would dismantling a box.

I think other issues are the ability to sharpen the serrations as easily as plain edges and to modify the thickness of them.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

It wasn't a binding issue, more like a tearing issue.

Thanks for the details, I just did some cutting with a Delica PE/SE both stock and the PE was much smoother for breaking down a box doing corner cuts on 1/8" cardboard. The PE could easily make slices with less than 5 lbs but the SE was difficult to cut consistently under 10 lbs and often it would snag a little and then the force could increase to over 20 and then explode in a more jagged cut. I think this may be stock dependent as I have done it very fluidly before which is why I was thinking it might have been a wedging issue. But you are correct it is definately an issue with the dynamics of the edge itself. I think it may be because part of the edge is hitting the box at a high angle and trying to do a push cut and unless the edge is extremely sharp this will fail and buckle the cardboard readily.

-Cliff