New Smithy Advice

jhiggins

jhiggins

Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Messages
3,258
Hi Folks,

I have plans to build a new smithy this Spring. Like many others in this profession, I'm stuck between what I can afford, and what I can dream about. I wondering, If I can get you, my friends, to help me decide that perhaps what I am able to build is ENOUGH for my needs, and not too much.

Here's what I am thinking about building: A 16x16 building on a 6" concrete slab foundation. I want a 12-12 pitched roof, and there will be double doors on the south wall, with a small window high up on the north wall. I'll have 240v 1ph power, and a cold water spigot inside over a drain in the floor leading to a dry-well. The walls will be 8' high, but the headroom will be higher by about 2' more due to the design of the rafters.

I'll be putting my smithing gear in there, and the major items of which I own will be a 260# anvil, a 70# anvil, a coal forge, a charcoal forge, and a gas forge. I want room in the future to put in there either a hydraulic press or a Bullhammer. I also want to be able to have a designated spot for my two salt pots out there.

Now here is my question: Knowing the approximate dimensions of 16x16, and what I intend to use the shop for, do you guys think it'll be enough?
 
That should be plenty. I just measured that area off. I'm working in approx 12 x 14 and its a little tight due to my wifes workbench , kiln and the furnace and water heater being in there. 16 x 16 would be just about perfect.

Mark
 
Jeff, Sounds to me like enough room but a 20X20 would be that much nicer. My whole shop/smithy is 16x20. It was not thought out at all when I made it. Just knew I wanted to get out of the attached garage before I burnt the house down. A concrete floor would be nice. I've kind of gotten used to the seasonal creek, insulated rubber boots are a must.
 
Mark,

Too funny! I just measured out the 16x16 on the floor here where I work. Me being the only mechanic here, naturally everything I'm doing is the most interesting and absorbing thing the press operators here have ever seen... yah right! Anyhow, I was gathering a crowd. I told them the GM was asking me to quote him a new office right downstairs here on the floor with glass walls. That shut them all up and they went right back to work, hahaha! Anyhow!

Ray,

My original plans were for 16x20, but I'll only be doing hot work out there. I'm also looking forward to when/if we sell this place and move up. I don't want some monstrosity building as big as my house (3-bdr ranch) on my property to scare away anyone interested in buying. Also here in NH we enjoy no income or sales tax, but they shag us pretty hard for property tax. 16x16 is bigger than I want to make, but I feel MAY just be the minimum I can go.

Its great to hear from all of you as to what sizes of smithing areas you guys forge in. So yes, buy only doing my hot work, only my forging and heat treating and welding and whatever out in the new shop I remove the possibility of burning my house to the ground, of which I have my shop in the basement/garage below.

Also, Ray, I'll most likely add an extended roof and pole-barn-type extension to the side. This will be probably 16x 16 as well for outside forging and keeping the rain off my scrap pile.

Anyone else have a similar setup? Better yet... anyone with pics?
 
Oh yeah and one more question concerning this.

I really would feel so much better about this new smithy if I could somehow fireproof it. Well, gosh if I had the money I'd build it out of brick, but have you seen the price of brick these days!? Instead, I'm thinking of maybe lining the inside wall 4' high with steel or something to make a slag-proof wainscot if you will. I also was thinking maybe that thin brick veneer? Anyone have any suggestions on this part of my quest?
 
The only thing I set on fire is ocassionaly myself. I ran some 4' wide gal. steel around my foring area. I do very little forge welding in my shop and thats about the only time I feel a wayne's coat is really necessary. Just my nickle's worth.

Never thought about the property taxes, its the sameway here in Oregon. My shop was part of the barn at one time so I may have gotten by without an increase.....
 
Thanks, Ray. Property taxes notwithstanding, The Missus and I are considering buying another house and possibly selling/renting/giving to son this one. Not quite sure yet, so anything waaayy more than I need woudl be wasted shoudl we move in a year or so.
 
What about drywall with a skim coat, it's fast and relatively fireproof, though of course if you aren't planing on finishing the interior at all.
 
OK I'm in California so everything is wacked out (Laws, Building Codes, Material Costs, people, ...)

However I have 4 out buildings. The lambing barn is 17 x 25 (as I recall), 2 sheds, 1 don't know what you'd call it. Partly enclosed 16 x 16.

The Lambing barn is a steel building with concrete floor. Hands down I will NEVER make another wood building! The cost of wood is just silly. It needs painting, it rots, collects bugs, harder to build, .....

Steel: lasts longer, cheaper to make, easier to make, doesn't need painting (Mine has a lifetime warranty),



Funny you mention the 'Wayne's coat'. I have a steel building with plywood 'Wayne's coat'.

Right now the oven is out there, I'm waiting on doors and 220. Then, after this year's lambing season, I hope eat all the sheep and move the shop out there. It is noisy and I don't have a solution yet. Maybe a hanging ceiling with accostic tiles?

Bottom line - go steel.

Steve
 
Higgy, build it big as much as you can afford. I am putting a extension on my smitty this spring. We have tendencies to out grow it quickly.:D :D As the old saying goes He who dies with the most toys wins.
 
Why not build it out of cinder block, cheaper than wood and firepruff. I think a munimum of 20X20 is necessary.

Ken Beatty
 
Has anyone with a rural property considered using a shipping container for a shop. I have seen them converted for use as inexpensive mobile offices and housing by adding doors and windows and finishing the insides. There was a really cool, modern looking office building in downtown Sydney, Australia, built using about 4 or 6 40 foot containers.

The containers are inexpensive. I got mine for the equivalent of $1200 USD when I moved to NZ, five years ago. It was a used one, graded "good for one more trip" and was able to use it for our move to Houston a year ago.

I have seen them used for storage on rural properties, and construction sites, here in Texas as well as in New Zealand. Check with your local building codes. In New Zealand, a container would have been considered a temporary building, so NO PERMITS were required.

The only part of it that could be flamable would be the plywood floor. Putting a layer of galvanized sheet steel should solve that problem. The steel walls are quite thick so they should keep any noise inside. One would have to wear hearing protection while inside when using noisy power tools. Security should not be an issue. Just buy a good, heavy padlock with a collar around the body and shackle to prevent the use of bolt cutters. Electrical power can be connected by using an extension cord and installing a water-resistant fitting like the ones on the outside of a travel trailer. I have seen such fittings for 3-phase power at electrical suppliers.

Those who are forging may have to cut a hole in the floor and put a tree stump into the ground to sit their anvil on. Your power tools and benches can be bolted down to the floors. I plan on getting a 40 foot one and turning it into a shop, when we finally move out into the country. If we move again, I would just disconnect the power, pack away the loose stuff and be ready to go soon after it is delivered to the new site. Adding one of those fabric and steel tube awnings (sometimes used as carports) would help reduce the temperatures inside in the summer and make it quieter when it rains.

The paint used is good for years of exposure to salt spray on the open deck of a ship but I would still highly recommend personally inspecting any container before buying it. Avoid ones with extensive "rust bubbles", especially on the roof! The wide "corrugations" in the metal will hold water after a rain increasing the chance that it will rust through and leak. Also, make sure that the plywood floor is not delaminating and/or spongy feeling when you jump on it (that's one of the things the inspectors look for) and that it does not look like it has absorbed toxic spills. I DO NOT recommend getting a used refrigerated unit. They invariably accumulate all kinds of food residue in places that can never be cleaned out and it WILL smell REALLY bad once it warms up for a few days. The foam insulation is probably flamable too.

There must be enough space on one or two sides of the container for the delivery truck and/or crane. Of course, the ground must be firm enough to take the weight of the container (several tons) and the trucks. It is much cheaper if a "tilt-loader" can be used to deliver the container since a crane is expensive (about $100/hour in Houston) I have my 20 footer on six stacks of two pallets each since there is the risk of flash floods here in Houston. Painting it to blend in with your site would decrease the chances that your neighbors would complain.

Sorry for the long post. I hope it helps some of you to make your hard-earned $'s stretch further (can you tell that I am cheap?).

Phil
 
Love the replies! Thanks, guys!

I like the container thing, but I'm in a "neighborhood" meaning we have some covenants to protect our property values. I can't have like 30 junk cars or livestock on my property. A container-shop would get me nothing but grief from my neighbors, although we are plenty spaced apart we can't see each other.

New Hampshire is beginning to clean itself up in this respect. Slowly but surely towns are creating laws limiting certain things a homeowner can and cannot do. New Hampshire is one of those states where we truly do live up to our motto of "Live Free or Die" but many in legislature are working hard to eliminate a few things. Its not uncommon to drive down the street to see a half-million-dollar home on one side, and right across from it a disgusting hovel of a trailer with a years trash scattered around the yard and six dogs chained to old derelict cars.

So I guess what I'm saying is that I also need some curb-appeal because my shop will be visible from the road. Hey Steve... If I go with a steel building, do they come in kits, or is it a matter of welding up the frame myself or what? If I did a steel building, it would have to be insulated. It gets cold here! Hehe!
 
Has anyone with a rural property considered using a shipping container for a shop.

Funny you mention this...I have one I just put on some acreage I own for storage, another will be delivered to my house this week. Got a trucker friend that got me two for $500. delevered. A couple other friend are going to cut off the undercarriage so it will sit flat, another bud works at a car crushing place that lets him borrow the fork left to set it down.

I too live in a neighborhood but I'm on an acre that has 100 foot Cypress trees around the perimeter so no-one can see in the back yard. Being a tempory structure there are no permit or tax problems. As mentioned it is all metal, even the floors! Got the roll up door, will also put in a regular door and some windows. They are 40 footers so that should give me a little room, was even thinking of boltin two together and putting a pitched roof on it to make it look decent.

Already have 220 run out back for the pool, not going to worry about natural gas, just fire up the forge for the few days a year I need to heat the place up...try to post pics when set up.

A company called "General" has been running ads for inexpensive steel buildings BTW.
 
Jeff,
I used to deal in pre-fab metal buildings. There's a company called versa-tube that you could order a metal building with a tubular frame and put it up yourself in no time. I checked one out at a trade show a year and a half ago and they are surprisingly sturdy - sturdier than the metal studs they use in framign out commercial offices. They don't cost near as much as masonry or stick frame and they're all metal so they won't burn. If you're not comfortable with the tubular frame, you could get a pre-fab metal building with a steel beam frame. You'll need a buddy and probably a fork-lift to erect that type of structure though. Let me know if you need more info. I don't sell them anymore, but I can pass along some of what I've learned. As far as the kits, I know 1 company where everything's predrilled and prewelded - you just put the bolts in and tighten them.

Tim

FYI - for a roof pitch on a metal building, they start at 2/12... Gives you higher overhead door clearance without putting a tower in your yard in case you need to back a truck into it. They're very easy to insulate and you can even order the insulation with the kit - if you do get insulation make sure you order a metal skin for the inside frame or put drywall on it.
 
Okay, Versa Tube. I'll try a websearch for that, thanks Tim! I did do some searching around for metal buildings in kit form. I come up with a good place: Steelmaster. They make some decent buildings and apparently are the oldest and best, with the best warranty I've seen so far. A 16x20 would cost me less than $5k, and that was the most expensive per-foot price. The salesperson said in reality it would be much lower on the exact quote because she could only give me a ballpark of $9-$14 per square foot. I figured worst-case scenario of $14 so I was actually impressed. Since it will be a smithy, I don't want too many windows and that's what drives up the price. Let's split that price to $12.50 per sqft and I come up with exactly $4k for a 16x20. Not too shabby. That, and about $900 for a slab and I'm good.

I'll definitely check out the versatube though.
 
Oh crap! One thing I forgot Jeff. Wait until about the end of January to mid February. That's when the steel building companies have to get rid of their "allocated" buildings and you can get wicked deals. What happens is the companies that make these buildings try to plan ahead of time to sell a certain number of buildings in certain stock sizes. So, they have their warehouses manufacturer a certain number of kits for x, y, and z size building. Well at the end of the year, if they haven't sold all of the buildings they planned to (the "allocated" ones) they have to get rid of them fast to clear up the factory for the pre-ordered projects. So, they liquidate them in jan-feb. They're only stock kits with specific door openings and parts, etc... but they're usually the same quality and you can get a building from 1 manufacturer under 1 warranty rather than through a metal building broker (General Steel, for example) who get's the parts from any cheap place on the planet. If you talk to a steel beam metal building company rep, you can ask him about their liquidation of the allocated buildings. They are happy to get rid of them. Good luck.

Tim
 
Hey Tim, I did some research on the Versatube buildings. I couldnt get hold of ANYONE. I even called their home office and just got the usual gobbledygook phone system crap. I couldn't even reach a real person. Steelmaster was pretty good on the CS end of things.
 
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