New thought on old heads - possibility of altered heat treat?

[moogoogaidan]

Hey guys, I'm just getting into the whole axe scene and I've been picking them up like mad. So far I've got about eight old double bits and about four single bits. As I understand it, good old American axes were made with better steel and craftsmanship than you can find at big box stores now, but I'm wondering how likely you guys think these old axes have had their heat treats ruined over the course of their long lives. Looking on the bay, I see a lot of vintage axes that have been brought up to a pretty good shine and have been "professionally" sharpened. What are the chances that a lot of these good axes have been sharpened or polished with power tools, thereby possibly ruining the heat treat?

And a quick side question: how do you guys think Council Tool axes stand up against vintage quality axes like Plumbs, Collins and Sagers? I'm not talking about Council Tool's Velvicut line, but their standard axes. Better, equivalent or less overall quality? Thanks in advance!

 

[markv]

Plumb or Collins, True Temper, Keen Kutter , Kelly all good choices.

buy a new hot shot promo axe and pay big money for the name.

you take your chances buying used tools.

life is all about taking chances

i like the old axes because i'm getting value plus quality plus vintage,
do what you think is right on a gut level

buzz

 

[Pipeman]

Running a file along the edge will tell you a lot about the hardness of the steel. I carry a new file in my truck for when I'm out junk store hunting.

Regards

Robin

 

[Section10]

With an old axe it's hard to tell what it's gone through. I have hand filed an awful lot of the old ones and loss of temper hasn't been much of an issue with me. It's true that an electric grinder is kind of risky, but maybe not as big a concern as it's made out to be. I always hand file because I find it very satisfying to fix up an edge with just a simple file. I wouldn't be afraid of buying any old mainstream axe label as long as the edge isn't utterly ruined. The area I live in does a lot of logging and sometimes the old double bits have one edge all gouged up from cutting logging cable. Those I usually avoid.
Today I bought two very nice double bit heads which will clean up to be excellent axes. A Collins Old Timer and one I haven't been able to decipher yet. Both in great shape. Cost $1.00 each. At those prices it's easy not to get too worried about what you're getting.
As far as comparing with new axes, 100% of my experience is with the old ones. I'm sure good new axes are being made today, but not for $1.00 each.
Jim

 

[trailmaker]

These are good questions, hopefully some of the blacksmiths can chime in. I like to be optimistic and tell myself that in the old days when axes were valued tools they used hand files or carefully used grinders. If there is any damage hopefully I can sharpen my way through it. I can't stop buying the damn things so I might as well be optimistic about their condition.

I picked up quite a few older council heads, they never get bid up as high as some other marks. Hopefully it's not for lack of quality.

 

[Zombiechopper]

even if the edge were overheated it would only lose hardness a very shallow amount. You can file through it to get back to hard steel. You would have to stick the head in a campfire or something like that to totally ruin the heat treat. You can feel if its soft with a file and you can see if its soft by the colour if you etch it.

I have re-heat treated two old axes now. It is very easy and forgiving to do with a tiger torch. Heat to non-magnetic and quench in oil. temper in the oven. Very easy. I do this when an axe is severely battered from being used as a sledge hammer. It lets me normalize the steel to relieve all that stress. I also did this to a gransfors because the factory heat treat was only at the very very tip. They all harden up very easily and because they are so thick you don't have to worry about warping or cracking.

 

[cckw]

If you soak it in vinegar you will see the heat treated area, it is darker in color then the rest of the head. I have found several that have bad spots or a whole bad edge from aggressive grinding. If the head looks abused I do that test before putting any work into it, although I have theorized as Z-chopper said, that on many of them the damaged metal might all be removed in the course of getting it properly reshaped. But I have enough good heads that those get packed away in the hoard box.