New to Bladesmithing

M

moridin

Joined
May 23, 2006
Messages
4
I'm new to bladesmithing, and I hope I'm posting in the right forum...there're about 9 billion here...

I did find somewhere in here a FAQ on how to go about making my first blade
(http://p222.ezboard.com/fprimalfiresfrm12.showMessage?topicID=25.topic)

My question is...what steel should I buy for starting out? I've heard O1 is suitable for a beginner, but there are many specs to it that I am not familiar with. Should I buy 1/8" thick and layer it twice? Should I buy 1/8" and leave it? Should I buy a rod and hammer it into whatever shape I want?

Side-question: Should I be looking elsewhere for steel? I'm looking at toolanddie.com-- it seems that a 13 dollar piece will make me 2 or 3 knives...seems like a fair price to me...but I don't know anything about this:rolleyes:
 
O1 will be fine
the ? you have to ask yourself is are you goingto grind it to shape or pound it
forging i would think round bar would be better
grinding 1/8 inch would be just fine
 
I'll kind of echo what butcher_block said, except for the bit about round bar being beter for forging. Sure, you can use it, but in learning to forge blades I found it easier to start with regular sized flat stock. If you start with round you'll have to pound it down into a flat to start with anyways :) That being said, if you plan to start by forging, get some mild steel to practice with first.

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

-d
 
I agree with deker - start with flat stock.1/8 is a bit thin to forge.I would suggest 3/16 or 1/4 to forge out.It will end up a lot thinner after forging and grinding off the hammer marks.
Stacy
 
Sorry, I'm sporadic in the timing of my posts...

Today I attempted to anneal the steel. I followed the guide according to one of those linked wherever it is on this website. The actual guide that I am following is http://p222.ezboard.com/fprimalfiresfrm12.showMessage?topicID=25.topic

The annealing went OK...I came fully to appreciate money and how much charcoal costs. After I'm done with this stock of steel (I ordered 3 feet of 5160, 1/4" x 1 3/4" x 1' ...ironically, it was cheaper than the other site's O1 and the O1 on their site...and the O1 available wasn't in optimal dimensions anyways.

The guide recommended using an old igloo icebox full of ash for slow cooling...
The steel melted through the icechest :rolleyes: so I rigged up an annealing facility. I'm not sure how well it is going to work, and the rigging is kind of hard to explain (metal bucket, bricks, used charcoal/ash, etc)

Thanks for responding.

Good luck and let us know how it goes!
Click to expand...

I'll post how the annealing worked and then,after I'm all done, I'll post a final picture. Hopefully it will resemble a vague concept of a "knife" :rolleyes:
 
For annealing,vermiculite (get it in a bag at the garden supply shop) works better than ashes (ashes are too powdery,as you found out).The idea is to have the annealing box (ice chest) half full of the insulation media (vermiculite) and place the blade on it.Then cover the blade with more until it is in the center of it.It will cool slowly for many hours.I leave them in overnight,and they are still hot to the touch in the morning.Don't dig in the box and pick it up with your fingers until you have checked to see how hot it is!
Stacy
 
moridin:

If I may offer some suggestions based upon the mistakes I have made and seen over the years (when looking for advice I have found the guys that are most useful are not the ones that only have success stories, but the guys who have made all the mistakes I would rather avoid;) ). The least often asked question when determining what steel to start out with , and ironically perhaps the most critical, is what equipment do you plan to work it with and what properties do you desire in the final product.

The only thing about O1 that is great for a first time maker is the fact that it will harden quite well with little effort, but so would a lot of other alloys that would never be considered introductory. I feel the many other complexities of O1, outweigh this one benefit.

Let me first congratulate you on your healthy attitude towards good steel, "it seems that a 13 dollar piece will make me 2 or 3 knives...seems like a fair price to me..." If it makes good knives the first time, it would be a fair price at $30 a pop, as opposed to the outragueous price many begginers pay
by monkeying around with "free" scrap, mystery steel only to find that the end products properties are a mystery as well (or worst yet, having the customer find this out for you:eek: ). No intention to preach here just, expressing my pleasure at hearing a new guy recognizing the cost benefits of good steel.

Reading your posts tells me that you want to at least start out with simpler tools, a wise choice for the begginer and perhaps more enjoyable, I often fall back to a simple charcoal, bellows and files setup when I want a break that I can enjoy, from the monotonous grind of full time making. But the tools you have tell me you want a steel that will respond best to them. Simple tools work simple steels the best. I would recommend 1070, 1080, 1085, W1, W2 or perhaps even 1095 for a guy starting out. While O1 will harden fine for you, it can be a bit finicky in the forging and will not reach its full potential without tighter controls over the heat treating temperatures. One good example of this would be your box of wood ash or vermiculite for annealing, you will not soften O1 very well with this setup but any of the other steels I mentioned above will come out dead soft from it. Many of the old blacksmithing methods were developed when only those simpler steels existed and are incapable of competely handling the needs of richer modern alloys.

As for your starting stock size, when forging you always want to start thicker and then forge down to your final dimensions. If you want a knife blade 1-1/2" wide by 1/8" thick you do not want to start with a bar that is 1/8" thick You would go with somethign that is 1" or 1-1/4" wide and 1/4" or 3/16" thick and allow the steel to get thinner and exand in width to your desired dimesions.

Any of the steels I have mentioned will produce fantastic knives, I use O1 all the time and it is one of my favorites, but after making my mistakes, if I had a selection of steel that included all the ones mentioned here, and I had only a hammer and a campfire to make a knife that my life depended on, I would save the O1 for back at my shop and choose one of the others.
 
Thanks for the detailed feedback--When I get some more cash I'll put some money into some vermiculite and a better annealing container.

I started out w/ 5160...I ordered it last the week before this past friday, and got it Thursday? I don't think my annealing worked...

1) I didn't have a magnet on hand, and I don't think I got it hot enough...it was a nice orange-red, and I thought that was good enough, but I suppose I didn't heat it up quite enough, or evenly
2) I don't think my rigged annealing facility worked either (comprised of a metal bucket turned on its side, and the other end closed w/ a bunch of bricks...when the first one didn't work out, I tried to rig an effective one in a hurry, apparently to no avail). I poured a bunch of ash above and below the steel, but I think in the process of rigging the facility it cooled too fast, too much, in addition to #1

The steel didn't seem soft at all. Just a little hot :rolleyes: No I didn't burn my hand off or anything.

I followed the guide, and let it anneal for 24 hours... A couple questions

1) Is that enough/too much time to anneal?
2) Will it hurt the steel chemically or whatnot to do it again? I don't think the first one was very effective.
3) The guide that I am using suggested a charcoal fire, but using 5+ bucks of charcoal per fire, resulting in about 10 dollars per knife at least of just fuel, seems rather expensive. At 6 bucks an hour (I'm a young 'un) I can't afford that additional cost. Is there a cheaper but nearly/as effective way to get a good fire going? I'm completely new to this.


Thanks
 
First Question, Why do you think the steel is too hard? Does a file slide accross and does not cut? Next the red orange was probably hot enough, posiibly too hot, get the magnet, but the annealing set up was not correct. It is better to just plunge the hot steel into the annealing medium. I usually preheat the medium by heating a large bar red and put it into the vermiculite. This helps the blade steel to cool slower. Was the blade forged to shape? Did you purchase 5160 hot rolled and annealed? These are questions that will help us answer you better. I feel that 5160 is a great steel, especially for beginners. I used 5160 for my J.S. performance test. It is a staple for many makers and readily available thru many dealers. Last bar I purchased was about $50 from pacific steel in portland. It is hot rolled annealed 1/4 X 2 22 feet long. Will make many knives and it is a great steel. It sounds like you are headed in the right direction and you are in the right place to learn. Keep on beating on that hot steel.

Chuck
 
I haven't started banging on it yet...I tried to go straight from forge to annealing like you said, but the first facility melted--see previous posts :rolleyes:

I'm going to start banging tomorrow morning...work this morning didn't permit me to do it today, along with the fact that it is hotter than hell itself outside right now.

The 5160 said nothing about being annealed and rolled. I bought it from a knife supplier.

I didn't think it annealed properly because my impression was that the steel should be noticeably softer once annealed, which it isn't. I was thinking that I may have messed it up and whether or not I should try annealing again, or just keep going forward w/ the forging and see if it works?
 
Since you're interested in forging have you checked your local ABANA chapter (blacksmithing group)?

I haven't tried 5160 but i doubt there is a need to anneal before forging. I don't with 1095. After it is the shape you want then anneal.
 
You should forge to shape first then do your annealing process. I would recommend 2 books by Wayne Goddard. The $50 Knife Shop, and The Wonder of Knifemaking. I recommend these books to all of my students. They both cover some of the same material but there is enough of a difference to make it worth buying both. They cover most of the basics from forging, theremocycling, annealing, normalizing and many other processes that you will need to know on order to make the best knife you possibly can. Next i would recommend a lesson or go to a hammer-in, if possible. But do not stop expereimenting on your own and ask more questions here. Let us know how you progress after your first day of forging. Good Luck
Chuck
 
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